Tapping top end

Hi guys
Forgot to ask . I tried Ian Wilson i think ( rover classics ) for a timing cover crank seal . I think mine is rope seal but i wasn't sure when i spoke to him . He didn't have one any way . Any idea where i can get one and can i replace it with a rubber one , or whatever the modern ones are made of ?
stina
 
stina said:
Hi guys
Forgot to ask . I tried Ian Wilson i think ( rover classics ) for a timing cover crank seal . I think mine is rope seal but i wasn't sure when i spoke to him . He didn't have one any way . Any idea where i can get one and can i replace it with a rubber one , or whatever the modern ones are made of ?
stina
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Hi Stina,

RPI do a replacement rubber seal for the rope.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Front-crank-O...arts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item2c5766a12f

I think it makes sense to go for it but if you fancy staying with the rope, I've got a new one you can have gratis, as I went for the RPI one.

Cheers,
 
Stan
I think i'll go for the RPI one . It's allot of work if you put it all back together and it leaks . Have to watch the pennies but don't want to ruin the ship for a ha'peth of tar !
cheers stina
 
Hi Stina

Just catching up on your progress after a couple of days away in P6 land - have a look what I've been digging up under 3500EI.

Yep, done some notes on here very recently about only nipping up the extra row of head bolts. On later engines Rover miss this row of bolts out altogether! Appaewntly they tend to distort the head and cause blown head gaskets! I shouldn't worry though, you'll get plenty of miles before you need to do the heads again. Remember this is in the context of a car doing 20k mls per year. Likewise with anti seize. Would have been nice, but not a catastrophe (unless Harvey disagrees?). If you slacken any bolts at this stage, you would need to fit a further set of new gaskets. So leave well alone!

I'd have thought your car was rather late to have a rope oil seal. Does anyone know for certain what the changeover date is?

Sorry to hear about the water pump stud. A certain inevitability about that! I'm sure someone on here replaced theirs with bolts. Was it Stan Vaultsman? Any chance of a heads up on what you used and where you got them from?

Getting the remains out of the block is always a fraught operation. The best approach depends critically on how much is above the surface. If there is some protruding, the ideal is to be able to run two nuts onto it and lock them together. Next best is to lay a nut over it and to weld the nut to the stud through the centre of the nut. You need to be very careful of heat transfer into the block though. Then we're onto the really tricky techniques. So next up is to drill a small pilot hole down the centre of the styd. Then insert an "easy out" into the hole and screw out the stud. This requires precision drilling. Ideally you make a do it yourself jig to mount to the front face of the block which guides the drill bit so that it can't run off centre. For definite this requires hand drilling, not power. Failing that, the technique tends to morph naturally into the next technique; where the drill does run off centre a bit or the easy out breaks off in the hole and you finish up drilling bigger and bigger holes until you are able to collapse the remains of the stud out of the hole. At this point the thread in the block is certain to be damaged. Don't panic. That is actually pretty easy. You simply helicoil it. Essentially you buy a special tap, which is the same thread pitch as the the origianl thread, but a size larger. You overtap the hole with this and then wind in a slinky coil of spring steel which engages in the new thread and brings the effective diameter back to original. Easy!

Chris
 
chrisyork said:
Likewise with anti seize. Would have been nice, but not a catastrophe (unless Harvey disagrees?). I'd have thought your car was rather late to have a rope oil seal. Does anyone know for certain what the changeover date is?
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I'd always use the proper 3M sealant, but I'm not sure if Land Rover still recommend its use. I've had head bolts snap on cars where you can see the bolts haven't been treated with it previously. That said hopefully you wont be removing it again.
All P6B's had rope front crank seals, the lipseals only came in with the SD1.
 
harveyp6 wrote,...
but I'm not sure if Land Rover still recommend its use
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They (Land Rover) don't.

In the 1998 Engine Overhaul manual covering all 3.5, 3.9, 4.0, 4.2 and 4.6 litre engines, Land Rover advise to use engine oil only on the head bolts.

When I fitted new head gaskets in 1997 I used an anti seize compound made by Loctite. It is suitable for using where temperatures exceed 1000 degrees C, so I figured it would be more than perfect for the head bolts, especially as I was unable to source the 3M product locally, and on the face of it, this seemed to be much better.

So I applied it to all head bolts and torqued them as per spec in the workshop manual. No one mentioned to me about reducing the torque on bolts 11 to 14, so I torqued them as stated in the manual. In 2007 when the engine was removed and later stripped, the head bolts came out perfectly as did all bolts that had been coated with the anti seize compound.

Given that the water pump bolts were factory lubricated with the 3M product, and snapped bolts from corrosion seem to be a regular occurance, then choosing an alternative to me would seem a smart move.

Ron.
 
O.k guys .
So basically i didn't do the best thing with the heads , but now their on leave well alone !
I've got some good sharp drills so i'll have a go at the stud . As i said it's flush with the block so drill only option . I'm sure it must of turned two turns before it snapped as their is about three turns of thread on the stud if you follow me ? There are only two left in the top of the timing cover managed to get other two out . These should be easier as i have cover on the bench .
Here we go then !
stina
 
Hi Stina

Since you live on a farm, I'm sure you have visiting fitters working on the tractors and other farm equipment. They should be very experienced and skilled at the stud removal problem. Perhaps ask one of them to lend a hand?

Chris
 
HHHMMMM
I know farms like that Chris , but where i work it's all held together with a wing and a prayer ! A 58 and a 76 massey . and a 95 john deere for the heavy work ! Some of the bodges i've seen inspire no confidence ! My dad is booked in for the weekend ( he doesn't know yet though ) he has easy outs .
Stina
 
Forget using easy-outs, if the bolt was tight enough to snap on the way out it will be far too tight for them to remove it, and all you'll succeed in doing is snapping it in there, and you won't be able to drill that out as they're too hard. Make sure you get a pilot hole drilled exactly down the centre of the bolt, then gradually increase the drill size until in the end (hopefilly) you can just uncoil the remains of the bolt thread out. Then decide if it needs a helicoil, which it probably will.
 
SydneyRoverP6B said:
Given that the water pump bolts were factory lubricated with the 3M product, and snapped bolts from corrosion seem to be a regular occurance, then choosing an alternative to me would seem a smart move.
Click to expand...

I don't think that the water pump bolts were ever coated with the sealant at the factory, only the head bolts. I think the proper 3M sealant is really good in fact, providing the bolts are properly cleaned before applying it.

I never experienced any problems with doing all the head bolts up to the same torque either. I did plenty of head gaskets that had blown into the valve chest, which is the supposed result of the problem outer row of bolts being torqued up fully, on cars I looked after continuously, sometimes for decades, doing 10-12K miles a year in some cases, but I never had a repeat failure so I can't see what the problem is.
 
Also invest in some quality drill bits before you start.

Forget B&Q, Machine Mart etc. they only sell titanium coated drills at best which will hardly touch the surface of a bolt. etc, go to a proper engineers and pay £20 each for a carbide drill bit
 
As has been said and can't be stressed enough, make sure your pilot hole is centred exactly in the middle. When I drill out bolts like this I usually start with a small drill 1.5mm as it is easier to line it up in the centre. Make sure you centre tap with a centre punch the broken stud first, you may have to file it flat first (if there is enogh of it sitting proud of the block).

ps if using tungstan carbide bit be very aware they break extremely easily with any off angle or side pressure.

Graeme
 
chrisyork said:
Sorry to hear about the water pump stud. A certain inevitability about that! I'm sure someone on here replaced theirs with bolts. Was it Stan Vaultsman? Any chance of a heads up on what you used and where you got them from?
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Hi Chris,

Yes, but for clarification it was the other way round. Original factory method for the water pump used bolts: 5 off 1/4" UNC x 1.1/8" long, 3 off 5/16" UNC x 4.3/4" long, and 1 off 5/16" x 5.1/2" long.

I changed the 5/16" bolts for stainless steel studs, on the basis of trying to avoid in the future the very problem stina's wrestling with here.

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Cheers,
 
Hi guys
All the talk of megga drill bits ( and i'd need more than one ) helicoils ect . Would i be better to try and find a mobile engineer ? I will let dad have a look tomorrow then decide . It's holding me right up now . Put painted rocker covers and manifold on yesterday needed a bit of inspiration . It looks good .
Stan your motor looks great ( seen pics on another post ) Did you use any gasket sealer on timing cover , and water pump or just gaskets ?
stina
 
stina said:
Did you use any gasket sealer on timing cover , and water pump or just gaskets ?
stina
Click to expand...

Hi Stina,

I used Blue Hylomar on the timing cover (but only because some fool had damaged the new gasket :oops: !) and also used a tad too much, that needed tidying up afterwards! :roll:

I just used the gasket on the water pump.

Feel for you with these troubles you're having. If you do go for a mobile engineer, make sure he/she's confident (and you're confident in him/her) before they start. If you and/or your dad have a go yourself, I'm fairly sure I've got a 5/16" UNC Helicoil kit knocking around here that I could send down to you.

Keep the faith! :)
 
Hi Stan
Thanks , that's good to know . Feel a little more confident if things do go wrong . Hopefully post some success tomorrow night ! I've got loads going on in my head . Still keep thinking of the misfire that was there at the start , hoping all this may of ironed that out . It does look nice now with the manifold and rocker covers on . The day will come ! Then i think i owe some people a few beers !
Cheers stina
 
I have always found when drilling out broken studs and bolts that a helicoil has not had to be used provided your drill is exactly centered as drill bits are available in 0.1 mm incremental sizes you can get to a point where the existing offending bolt threads can be broken out. It can be a bit arduous and time consuming but does mean you are left with the origional thread intact.

graeme
 
Hi Graeme
That's what i'm hoping for . Give it loads of time patients and tea ! Got the heli coil option if it all goes wrong . Prob best attacked with a hangover ! easier to walk away ! You must of come across this in your 100 years !
Party on
stina
 
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