Clutch travel on 2000

[Phil Robson]

I'm hoping to get my 2000 in for MOT on Thursday ( ) but when I've come to fill & bleed the clutch, I can't get any decent travel on the pedal; not even enough to get fluid coming out of the master cylinder. I've had the adjuster in the pedal fully in (no movement of pedal possible) & fully out (a little pedal travel).


One thought; should I pull the pedal hard upwards? The master cylinder was replaced several years ago & hasn't moved since. Is it possible that the piston may be stuck forwards in the cylinder? :?

 

[harveyp6]

Is it possible that the piston may be stuck forwards in the cylinder? :?

Yes.

There's a specific pedal height that needs to be set. Set the brake pedal 6&7/8" from it's lowest point to the metal floor vertically, and then set the clutch pedal level with it.

If you're not getting fluid out the master isn't working, and that could be because the piston is stuck.

 

[Phil Robson]

Thanks Harvey. I've been able to pull the pedal up (quite easily) so hopefully the clutch should bleed OK when I try later today...

 

[Phil Robson]

Well, I think I've bled the clutch sufficiently now - this is the travel I get:

BUT I still can't get the gears :?

When the car is put in reverse (engine off), the selector shaft seems to go all the way in & in the process presses the reverse light switch:

There is travel of the shaft of perhaps an inch. However, when any other gear is selected, the shaft movement is not half an inch & the gear isn't engaged. I did not alter any shafts or selector lever when I put things back, but I suppose they could have been set incorrectly when the car was taken off the road all those years ago - in fact it could have been the reason it was :|

This is starting to look serious (engine/gearbox out again?) I'd better cancel next week's MOT :cry:

EDIT - Is the operating arm too far forward? It's certainly more than the 5 deg that the book says.

 

[harveyp6]

The drop arm should be set so that when it's pushed rearwards until it makes contact with the pressure plate, at that point it is one spline forwards. Then you need to set the pedal height, the pushrod length, and the pedal stop bolt. When you have full travel on the pedal, the drop arm looks to be vertical, and that's not enough travel to allow the clutch to clear.

Set all the clutch up properly before you start worrying about the selectors. Once you've correctly set the drop arm, I'll run through the rest of it.

 

[Phil Robson]

Many thanks Harvey. I'll try & have a go tomorrow night.

 

[Phil Robson]

The drop arm should be set so that when it's pushed rearwards until it makes contact with the pressure plate, at that point it is one spline forwards. Then you need to set the pedal height, the pushrod length, and the pedal stop bolt. When you have full travel on the pedal, the drop arm looks to be vertical, and that's not enough travel to allow the clutch to clear.

Set all the clutch up properly before you start worrying about the selectors. Once you've correctly set the drop arm, I'll run through the rest of it.

I had a go at this last night using the dimensions & settings per the manual. With the engine off it was pretty easy to select 2nd & 4th (which it wasn't before - so that's promising). It was quite late when I finished & I didn't want to annoy the neigbours by running the engine, so I'm crossing my fingers for when I try it properly later today.....

 

[Phil Robson]

Unfortunately things are no better when the engine is running :cry:. I've been advised to ensure that the gear lever & operating 'finger' are set up correctly; I did take the finger off, but scribed a line so that it went back in the same place.

With this car though I haven't a clue what anything was like the last time it ran which is a problem. I assume it was just stored after failing an MOT with (almost) terminal rust.

 

[Demetris]

Well, I think I've bled the clutch sufficiently now - this is the travel I get:

BUT I still can't get the gears :?

Hi Phil, it might be just me, but the travel that you get seems small.
Given that sometimes the clutch slaves on the 2000 are pig to being bled properly, could you have another go, this time with the slave removed, and turned verticaly with the bleed nipple on top? In this way you will be sure that there is no air in the system.

 

[Phil Robson]

Well, I think I've bled the clutch sufficiently now - this is the travel I get:
BUT I still can't get the gears :?

Hi Phil, it might be just me, but the travel that you get seems small.
Given that sometimes the clutch slaves on the 2000 are pig to being bled properly, could you have another go, this time with the slave removed, and turned verticaly with the bleed nipple on top? In this way you will be sure that there is no air in the system.

Thanks Demetris, however I have since adjusted the clutch exactly per the manual & the travel is now just under a 1/2 inch which is what it says. The end of the travel is almost touching the circlip in the slave cylinder, again as per the manual. I'm getting a little bit lost with this... :|

 

[Demetris]

There are different clutch covers (with or without a pad over the springs) that go with different release sleeves.
It is possible if you have a late clutch cover (without a pad) with an early release sleeve (probably as you have an early gearbox) to not have enough travel to release the clutch. Do you remember anything from the time that put the clutch together?

 

[Vern Klukas]

There are different clutch covers (with or without a pad over the springs) that go with different release sleeves.
It is possible if you have a late clutch cover (without a pad) with an early release sleeve (probably as you have an early gearbox) to not have enough travel to release the clutch. Do you remember anything from the time that put the clutch together?

The difference is a half inch. If your car serial is suffix G (SC) or D (TC), you should have a H suffix (needle roller) gearbox and use the later cover. Regardless of car serial, a G or less suffix box will need the early cover with a thrust plate.

Unless of course somebody has swapped release housings & release sleeves.

Yours
Vern

 

[Phil Robson]

Thanks Gentlemen, I think checking the covers will be a last resort being a little difficult to get to!

In the meantime a P6 friend has suggested that the gearlever is set incorrectly. It looks too far forward per the manual :shock:


(For sharkstooth fans, I do have the correct gaiter to fit! 8) )

 

[Phil Robson]

This is the full sequence:


The gears change only with the engine off & the change is notchy.

 

[Phil Robson]

...and to finish off, I've noticed that there is no 'Tie Bracket', labelled B on the manual diagram:

I can't remember ever taking one off (many years ago :roll: ) & there's no evidence that I've undone the tunnel bolts that it would have been bolted to (they're covered in underseal).



Any ideas please?

 

[harveyp6]

You need to get the tie bar fitted because that sets the distance between the gearlever and the gearbox. I was looking at the first two pictures and thinking that instead of moving the selector striker lever on the selector rod, you might just be able to move the gearlever mounting plate backwards to achieve the same thing, with the tie bar missing I'd say it would be even more likely that the gearlever mounting plate could be in the wrong place.

 

[Phil Robson]

Yes - it looks like I'm after a tie bar now! :|

Does anyone have an early 2000 tunnel to gearbox tie bar, please?

 

[chrisw]

You need to get the tie bar fitted because that sets the distance between the gearlever and the gearbox. I was looking at the first two pictures and thinking that instead of moving the selector striker lever on the selector rod, you might just be able to move the gearlever mounting plate backwards to achieve the same thing, with the tie bar missing I'd say it would be even more likely that the gearlever mounting plate could be in the wrong place.

Why? I don't have it fitted on 179. The gearbox doesn't even have the plate to fit the end into.

The distance between the gearlever and the gearbox is set by the shaft that the gearlever fits into, and the location on that shaft of the adjustable lever that slots into the selectors. I'd suggest that the lever is in the wrong place.

 

[partviking]

Phil

Just read through this thread and would offer the following.

VERY early gearboxes had no tie bar and whilst not perfect still worked so whilst the tie bar may help I can't see it would make the difference between getting/not getting a gear if everything else was OK though I can see it would establish the relevant positions of gearbox and gear lever support plate correctly.

My gearbox like yours should have a steady bar but doesn't though in my case I have no problem getting gears, and also have very limited pedal travel but have put this down to a pattern non-genuine master cylinder.

To establish if it is a linkage issue you could, manipulate the selector rods manually from under the car(this would eliminate all linkage issues as you'd be working directly with the selectors) to see if they can engage gears.

Now doing this with the engine running is of course a bit 'dodgy' but assuming you can get the back wheels off the ground and the car well supported safely then a man in the drivers seat could depress the clutch whilst you could move the selector rods under the car. knocking them forward for 2nd, 4th & reverse is easier then getting 1st and 3rd though I have found a decent hook type impement will pull them back fine.

In fact for future reference when removing the box you can leave all the gear change linkage in place. If you have the finger over by 3rd/4th and knock the reverse selector forward there's enough room to get the finger out and slide the whole rod back out of the front support bush and back out of the way. The steady bar may complicate this so cannot say if it will still be possible with in place but without it's a doddle.

For what its worth my early gearbox was also a factory rebuild, the drive flange was loose and bu**ered the speedo drive nylon wheel and the reverse gear was miles out and used to jump out till I set it correctly whereupon its been fine.

Be interested to see the 'result' of your investigations, certainly a puzzler. :? :?

 

[Phil Robson]

Thanks gents. Mine looks like it never had a tie bar then?

I'll have a look at the selector finger, then check the actual selection manually if no joy.

As you say, certainly a puzzler....