Tie rod hit the inner wheel housing

[Cooper99]

On the right hand side the tie rod sits really close to the inner wheel house, and the tie rod hits the inner housing when suspension movement and turning at the same time (see the marks up and down in the picture). The camber seems to be negative.

The top ball joints are new, and the workshop that replaced them said the bottom ones where in good shape. The top link bushes are old but seems to be quite okay. There is no serious rust anywhere in the wheel housing.

What can the cause to this be?

 

[Vern Klukas]

There are steering lock stops, adjustable bolts. Possible that those are somehow out of adjustment.

Yours
Vern

 

[cobraboy]

I would say that your observation on camber is correct, there is a lot of negative camber on the wheel in pic 2 .
I think you need to look for any deformation of the bulkhead area where the inner bellcrank mount is fixed.
If it looks ok then you are going to have to shim that mount in order to lessen the negative camber, this will get you clearance on the steering arm. Check and equalise both sides, then re do the toe setting.

 

[Vern Klukas]

I should never reply before my second morning coffee, I just jumped to a steering lock issue. Which it isn’t.

Yours
Vern

 

[sdibbers]

I had a similar problem with Beryl that was caused by very worn top link bushes (especially the outer ones). After replacing those alignment was back to spec with the shims removed from previous attempts to align the front end. It’s worth the effort to replace the bushes.

 

[jp928]

Many, many moons ago I had a TC, no PAS, and I thought the steering was ....like that. Then I drove another 4 cyl car - much lighter steering. Cause - excessive caster. Took some advice - cause is depression on the bulkhead where the bellcrank pivots mount - shim the mounts forward. With no idea how much to shim the first attempt lightened the steering nicely, but completely removed the self-centering action - very scary short test drive! Thinned the shims down - on all 4 bolts - good result all around. Note that the book says front camber can be +/- 1degree. Get a professional measurement done so you know where you are coming from, and try to work out how much shim you need to get into spec - ie work out how far outwards the top balljoint needs to move to get spec camber - a bit of trig based on distance between top and bottom balljoints; then some trig based on distance between inner and outer bellcrank mounts.
Looking at the first pic again, should there be that much plain shaft visible between the boot and the underside of the bellcrank ? Is the bellcrank properly seated on the balljoint taper?
Just checked mine (74 v8) by feel - wheels at straight ahead (or very close) the ball joint boot is within a couple of mm of the inner panel. Visual check will have to wait a bit.

 

[Cooper99]

Thank you for the answers. The car has heavy steering so probably both camber and castor are wrong. I've been reading the various forum threads on the same topic, and have come to the conclusion that I have two ways to go. It might be a bit of unnecessary work to go via option 1, but if it's a simple and quick job, I'll have time to do it so I can use the car this summer. I assume that option 2 takes considerably more time and therefore should be done this winter.

Option 1. Quick fix to adjust camber to get clearence of the steering arm, in order to fix it properly at a later time according to option 2 below:
1. Ask a workshop to measure the wheel angles to find out the "starting position".
2. Buy an assortment of shims. I have seen a link to Amazon for an assortment of shims. I have also seen another variant that is used e.g. on Triumph. Can both of these work, see pictures?
3. Shim the inner mounts by loosening the top pivot bolts from behind the glove boxes so the mount will pull away from the bulkhead. Add some shims and re-tighten. [Is this really an appropriate way? Can't the threads be damaged by the spring tension?]

Option 2. Doing it properly by replacing bushes as first step, then shims if needed to get the right camber:
1. Remove the fenders for easier access.
2. Follow the pinned thread about removing the spring. I get the feeling from reading the forum threads that it is extra risky to loosen the spring on these cars, compared to other cars with McPherson. Is that right?
3. Change ball bushes and top link bushes (rubber ones, not poly due to squeak).
4. Reassemble, and hope that the wheel angles will be correct, otherwise adjust the camber with shims.

Any comment on this?

 

[Cooper99]

Looking at the first pic again, should there be that much plain shaft visible between the boot and the underside of the bellcrank ? Is the bellcrank properly seated on the balljoint taper?

I've reacted to it too, but it appears to be mounted correctly. Attached are some pictures, before and after.

 

[Vern Klukas]

"Can't the threads be damaged by the spring tension?"

No, the spring wants to push the mounts against the bulkhead, so the threads are never under tension. The second shim pic looks more appropriate, as long as the slot is not much bigger than the bolt diameter.

The dangers associated with spring removal have to do with removing the spring from the suspension assembly, not the suspension from the body.

My inclination would be to find out what’s wrong, and then fix it, i.e. option 2. But option 1 gets you on the road in short order. And it doesn’t seem to me what ever is wrong is a dangerous condition.

Yours
Vern

 

[jp928]

I shimmed mine as you suggest - loosen the bolts from inside , drop shims into place , tighten. No issues encountered. Strongly suggest you get the front end measured for camber and caster first, so you know what you are hunting for.

 

[mikecoombs]

you need to replace or at least check all the suspension mounting points before attempting to adjust anything. The shock rubbers are gone and as mentioned the top arm bushes appear to be the likely culpret for the steering knuckle issue. Replacing them requires removal of the top link which is a major operation but when set up correctly they don't wear. Having replaced them the car will need a wheel alignment anyway so start with the repairs first. The top ball joint is an aftermarket replacement. The Factory ones have a thinner clamping plate and shorter rod. Both seem to work though.

The bottom ball joints are impossible to test without removing the lower links from the body (which also gives you the chance to check the ball joint between them). This is due to the permanent loading applied by the bottom link geometry. there is too much force applied for usual test to work. However if they removed the pillar to change the top joints then they probably got decent measurements.

 

[sdibbers]

Option 2 all the way. If you shim without repairing the worn bushes (option 1) you’ll still have the top link moving around and changing camber/caster/toe all the time on you. You don’t want that.

 

[Cooper99]

I shimmed mine as you suggest - loosen the bolts from inside , drop shims into place , tighten. No issues encountered. Strongly suggest you get the front end measured for camber and caster first, so you know what you are hunting for.

That sound like what I need just now. I haven´t driven the car in seven years due to engine problems that are fixed now, and I haven´t got the time to do option 2 in the coming months; it have to wait until winter if I will have the possability to use the car this summer. But then, of course, I have to put up with the fact that the wheel setting is not right and that it is noticeable when driving, but maybe it will be better than it is now.

You need to replace or at least check all the suspension mounting points before attempting to adjust anything. The shock rubbers are gone and as mentioned the top arm bushes appear to be the likely culpret for the steering knuckle issue. Replacing them requires removal of the top link which is a major operation

Option 2 all the way. If you shim without repairing the worn bushes (option 1) you’ll still have the top link moving around and changing camber/caster/toe all the time on you. You don’t want that.

Yes of course you are right, that is the way to go really. Am I grasping at straws here, or do you think option 1 is a possible way to go to be able to use the car at least a little this summer, and wait with option 2 until winter?

Maybe it is just as well to change everything in the suspension/steering, all parts are the original ones I assume; i.e. all bushings, shocks, springs, bottom ball joints, and maybe the steering side rods, and send the metal bits to blastering and powder coating.

In totalt it will be quite expensive though. Here in Sweden, these cars have no major economic value unfortunately, and I have already put down the car's double value

 

[harveyp6]

The bottom ball joints are impossible to test without removing the lower links from the body (which also gives you the chance to check the ball joint between them). This is due to the permanent loading applied by the bottom link geometry. there is too much force applied for usual test to work.

That's not correct.

 

[cobraboy]

For a temporary fix you don't need fancy shims. I used 3/8" plain washers and cut a slot, and dropped them in from the top, quick and simple.
IIRC one plain washer altered the camber by 0.5 deg.
Make sure there is adequate thread through the nut on the inside.

 

[SydneyRoverP6B]

Can't the threads be damaged by the spring tension?]

Hi Cooper,

The way you determine the forces existing within the various components is to construct a free-body diagram and apply the rules of statics. In doing so we assume that the vehicle is stationary. The summation of all forces in the three planes must equate to zero otherwise our system is unstable and prone to failure. We know this because the front suspension does not fail when the car sits there, or when we drive the Rover. The four rods that secure each top link experience both a tensile force in the x-direction, which we take as horizontal, and a moment. When the car is stationary this force is not large as we can loosen the top link and move it forward to allow the placement of shims. The moment comes from the force within the spring and the distance of that force from the top link mounting rods. To counter that moment, there is an equal and opposite moment occuring at the top link mounting point. Together, these two moments form a couple with their algebraic sum equal to zero. There are also forces within the lower links, but we need to determine their x-direction horizontal components if we wish to assess the entire front suspension in terms of the forces that are present. If we find that there are more unknowns that the number of equations, then the front suspension design is what we call statically indeterminate. This means that we now need to use mechanics (mechanics is the examination of the internal forces within a body that is subjected to external loads) to assess the design.

Ron

 

[Cooper99]

Thanks for the detailed information Ron, it's very interesting when you get to see the underlying construction rules of a design solution. My knowledge of maths and physics has barely been used since graduation from the university; but I'm lucky to have a good high school math teacher as a wife

I haven't fitted any shims yet, but hope to get the chance to do so soon.

 

[PNP]

Interested to know if you ever got to the bottom of this. Mine went back together the same after replacing the bushes and ball joints. Was fairly close when I did a ‘pre tear down’ check but was drivers side went back together with 1.5 degrees camber. Tower is 10mm closer to the inner guard than the other side.

I don’t recall removing any shims when I pulled it apart.

 

[sdibbers]

The 1.5° negative camber sounds a lot. I run 1.25° with the car lowered. I think you may need to shim the inner top link bracket a bit. It’s not unheard of that the firewall can shift over the years causing this issue.

 

[jp928]

Have experienced bulkhead depression myself in a TC. I suggest you start shimming in small amounts, as going too far produces a VERY bad steering experience - I lost all self centering on turns . Make some shims with washers that will fit over the bolts, with a slot cut out so you can slip them over the bolt by just loosening the bolt/nut.