Pulling to one side- Wheel not straight

D

Deadstar

New Member
My car was pulling to one side, which I thought was due to the sticking calliper - n/s. I replaced the calliper, and at the same time fitted new stainless hoses all round. I have identical tyres on the front, I have swopped the rears with the front. The car continues to pull to the n/s but now I have noticed that the n/s front wheel is not true, it points slightly to the left ,( when looked at from the front of the car) Tracking has been done. Now when driving the car wants to go left.
Any ideas ?
 
Deadstar said:
My car was pulling to one side, which I thought was due to the sticking calliper - n/s. I replaced the calliper, and at the same time fitted new stainless hoses all round. I have identical tyres on the front, I have swopped the rears with the front. The car continues to pull to the n/s but now I have noticed that the n/s front wheel is not true, it points slightly to the left ,( when looked at from the front of the car) Tracking has been done. Now when driving the car wants to go left.
Any ideas ?
Click to expand...

Who did the tracking?

Is the n/s tyre wearing very quickly?


BTW - Not a good ideas to change tyres from front to rear on these cars as they will tend to 'Tramline.'
 
Whatever the garage might have said, that sounds like they didn't do the tracking correctly. It is not easy to adjust on the P6 as the adjuster is down below the heater....

You say that visually the wheel is pointing left. One possibility is that you really mean pointing outwards. If the tracking is the problem, then when one wheel is in line with the for and aft axis of the car the other will point away from the axis in whichever direction. Best to think of looking at the car from above ie in plan view. If you mean that when looking from the front of the car one wheel is vertical and the other is at an angle to the vertical (normally pointing out at the bottom of the wheel) then the problem is not tracking but camber. This is oftem caused on the P6 by the rubber bushes in the top link bracket on the front bulkhead being perished. Not an easy job to rectify as it involves having the front spring out and that needs factory special spring compressors. Very occasionally it can be caused by corrosion weakening of the bulkhead in this area. However I have no experience of driving a car with a large inequality of camber between the front wheels so couldn't say for certain whether it would cause pulling to one side.

I suggest the best course of action is to take the car to a tyre dealer who has a full optical alignment rig, as opposed to just a tracking optical rig. These are not common. I know of one in Bristol and one in Micheldever. Explain to them where the tracking adjuster is and get them to check the camber at the same time.

Chris
 
Strangest thing, changed the n/s tyre again ( after checking suspension, couldn't find anything wrong with the set up) and hey, car drives straight and true. I have never experienced anything like this before. I still can't believe that a tyre could create such a problem.
 
chrisyork said:
Whatever the garage might have said, that sounds like they didn't do the tracking correctly. It is not easy to adjust on the P6 as the adjuster is down below the heater....

You say that visually the wheel is pointing left. One possibility is that you really mean pointing outwards. If the tracking is the problem, then when one wheel is in line with the for and aft axis of the car the other will point away from the axis in whichever direction. Best to think of looking at the car from above ie in plan view. If you mean that when looking from the front of the car one wheel is vertical and the other is at an angle to the vertical (normally pointing out at the bottom of the wheel) then the problem is not tracking but camber. This is oftem caused on the P6 by the rubber bushes in the top link bracket on the front bulkhead being perished. Not an easy job to rectify as it involves having the front spring out and that needs factory special spring compressors. Very occasionally it can be caused by corrosion weakening of the bulkhead in this area. However I have no experience of driving a car with a large inequality of camber between the front wheels so couldn't say for certain whether it would cause pulling to one side.

I suggest the best course of action is to take the car to a tyre dealer who has a full optical alignment rig, as opposed to just a tracking optical rig. These are not common. I know of one in Bristol and one in Micheldever. Explain to them where the tracking adjuster is and get them to check the camber at the same time.

Chris
Click to expand...

Who are you refering to in Bristol, Chris? Only place I know with that sort of setup is protyre and TBH I'm not sure if some of the yoofs in there ought to be let loose on older/classic stuff...
 
I do indeed mean Protyre. I've spent quite a lot of time with them and have no complaint at all about the Yoof's! They all seem to have quite interesting motors, and whatever they look like, their brain power is well above average. I once spent a while watching them set up an Impreza, which has fully adjustable suspension achieved by fitting offcentre bushes everywhere which you rotate to change suspension arm lengths, and was impressed by ther knowledge of the consequences of the choices they were making.

The other place I'd go if I wasn't happy with Protyre would be Micheldever Tyres at Micheldever station near Basingstoke. They get a lot of exotica (Astons, Ferraris etc) in to be set up and are extremely professional. They are the point of import for many of the big tyre manufactureers too, so tend to have better stocks of unusual specs than most.

Chris
 
chrisyork said:
I do indeed mean Protyre. I've spent quite a lot of time with them and have no complaint at all about the Yoof's! They all seem to have quite interesting motors, and whatever they look like, their brain power is well above average. I once spent a while watching them set up an Impreza, which has fully adjustable suspension achieved by fitting offcentre bushes everywhere which you rotate to change suspension arm lengths, and was impressed by ther knowledge of the consequences of the choices they were making.

The other place I'd go if I wasn't happy with Protyre would be Micheldever Tyres at Micheldever station near Basingstoke. They get a lot of exotica (Astons, Ferraris etc) in to be set up and are extremely professional. They are the point of import for many of the big tyre manufactureers too, so tend to have better stocks of unusual specs than most.

Chris
Click to expand...

Consider myself told then :LOL:

To give credit where it's due, I have been in there on deliveries, for motorcycle tyres and had moderns setup with no problems. Never seen anything but moderns being worked on is all.
 
I have seen that the right front wheel has a considerable amount of negative camber, while the left one is more or less vertical to the ground.
The top link bushes on the right side have been changed with polybushes a couple of years ago (because the rubber ones were completely worn, there was metal to metal contact) while the ones on the left have been left alone, as there was no knocking or any strange symptoms.

Any ideas why the camber should vary so wildly front to left? The front springs should be the original ones and the car sits more or less level. The bottom link bushes are OK on both sides.
One theory is that the negative camber is normal for the right wheel at the current front suspension height, and it is the left front that has a problem probably due to deteriorated top link bushes. Does this sound reasonable?

I am going to change front springs and top link bushes on both sides anyway, but if all else fails, is it OK to adjust the camber with shimming the top link pilars on the bulkhead? I am thinking that if you release a little the top link mounting bolts, the spring will pull the pillar away from the bulkhead and i could insert a shim or two, and tighten back the pillar.
Does it sound reasonable?

Thanks,

Demetris
 
Hi Demetris

To summarise, the nearside wheel has positive camber, the offside doesn't?

First thing to do is check the ride height each side is the same. The P6 has a large amount of camber change with suspension compression, so if the ride heights are different it follows that the camber will be different too. Don't worry too much about the method identified in the manual, for the purposes of this, wheel centre to the same point on the wing will do.

If the ride heights are the same, prime suspect is the top link pivot rubbers (or polybushes!). Polybushes are known to have a much shorter life than the rubbers. Partly, this is because the poybushes don't have the metal sleeve in them that the rubbers do, so the inner face of the polybushes wears on the pivot pin. This is why Alan at Classeparts has some horribly expensive polybushes manufactured with the metal sleeve in. The wear usually results in positive camber on the same side as the worn bush.

If the ride heights are not the same, you have the reason for the difference in the camber. Now go look for the cause of the difference in the ride height. Prime suspect here is the rear suspension. Go check the ride heights at the rear! If they are different that will be the reason the fronts are different. The logic from here on is fundamentally simple but very difficult to visualise. If you have all four springs out (!!!) you will find that the low side at the front and the high side at the rear are shorter than their partners at the same end. Cause will be a misaligned spring platform in the bodyshell at the low side in the rear. Solution is new springs all round plus enough packing in the high side at the rear to bring the effective spring platforms back level. You can measure this with a water level. Set the car on its sills at the rear of the bodyshell and on the centre point of the the engine cross memeber at the front = three point suspension. Now check it is level at the rear side to side by using the water level - clear plastic tube full of water, one end with the water level at the sill on one side and check the water level coincides with the sill on the other side - pack until it is. Then remove the rear dampers and insert the water level tube up through the hole in the base unit that the dampers come through. See if both sides are the same level. Very high chance they are not. The error is the amount of packing you will have to add to one of the springs to restore level. This could be quite a lot! Don't be scared, another spring cup or even large discs welded onto the top of the spring cup are in order. Don't for one moment believe that Pressed Steel Fisher (who made the base unit) must have got it right! Demetris, your car is around the same age as my 3500 and mine were around 25mm out!

Whichever is the cause, I'm afraid you can look forward to front springs out! Sorry!

Chris
 
chrisyork said:
Hi Demetris

To summarise, the nearside wheel has positive camber, the offside doesn't?
Click to expand...

Hi Chris,

first of all thanks for getting into trouble to type all this!
What i said is that the right front (offside to you, on a RHD car) has a lot of negative camber (i.e. the bottom of the wheel is splaying out) while the other side is more or less vertical.

chrisyork said:
First thing to do is check the ride height each side is the same. The P6 has a large amount of camber change with suspension compression, so if the ride heights are different it follows that the camber will be different too.
Click to expand...

I am aware of this, but there is only a slight lean to the left (driver's side to me). This was more prominent prior to the replacement of the rear springs a couple of years ago. I hope that the replacement of the front springs that remain still in schedule will bring the car level again.

chrisyork said:
If the ride heights are the same, prime suspect is the top link pivot rubbers (or polybushes!). Polybushes are known to have a much shorter life than the rubbers. Partly, this is because the poybushes don't have the metal sleeve in them that the rubbers do, so the inner face of the polybushes wears on the pivot pin. This is why Alan at Classeparts has some horribly expensive polybushes manufactured with the metal sleeve in. The wear usually results in positive camber on the same side as the worn bush.
Click to expand...

The polybushes have been installed on the side with the negative camber. But i don't really like them as they squeak a lot when the weather gets cold. So i have a full set of replacements on the good old rubber for both sides waiting. Hopefully this will work.
I do remember what you did with your car, but i would like to sort out the elementary first, and if there are still problems, dive into the advanced stuff.

Demetris
 
Finally i managed to find some time to change the front springs and top link bushes.

The old rubber bushes on the left were obviously worn, while the poly ones on the right were too stiff and squeaky. The new ones fitted were proper rubber with bonded metal sleeves. The new springs were old stock, old specification, slightly shorter and stiffer than the items i replaced.

Results? The front end seems to sit slightly higher than before, and the car seems to be reasonably straight side to side.
But the problem remains with the alignment of the right front wheel. It still has a lot of negative camber (while the left wheel is about neutral) and some more caster too. Probably the previous owner tried to get over a very high kerb at speed judging by the looks of the floorpan on that side too. :evil:

I have left the wings off and in the next days i will take the car for alignment. Hopefully it will be sorted just with some spacers. Although i have heard cases that they were bending the top link on a press to compensate. :shock:

Also the misalignment of the rear wheels became evident too. The left rear tyre is worn on the inside. This car must have suffered a lot. :(

Demetris
 
Sorted! :D

Thankfully the engineer in the alignment shop knew his job rather well. The first assessment revealed that the right front wheel had been pushed back. I cannot think how. The result was too much negative camber and too much caster. We had to make an oval at front lower link mounting point and fit shims at the inner top link pillar, but it came out nice and straight!

Also the rear wheels had something like 14 mm toe out! :shock: We had to fit shims on the hub mounting faces but all is well now.
And the most important, it also feels nice on the road! :D

Demetris
 
That sounds an excellent result Demetris! Workshops that have both the instrumentation, the knowledge and the inclination to do as you describe are extremely thin on the ground anywhere in the world. Full marks for managing to find one in Greece!

I'm going to have to think about the toe out on the rear wheels. My first inclination is to wonder whether this could vary with ride height. The track at the rear changes due to the angle of the drive shafts, which are fixed, and the de dion tube; whereas the front of the trailing arms is fixed, so there must be some angular variation. But 14mm sounds a huge amount!

Chris
 
Hi Chris,

I was impressed by the workshop too. You can find easily alighment shops with the latest instrumentation but this does not mean that their operators know what they are looking at. Let alone to correct faults in a car. He also suggested to me to make the lower front link adjustable, but this would be quite a bit more involving. So we decided to alter a little the mounting hole.
His price was very reasonable too. I paid 120 euros while he seemed to enjoy the fact that i could undestand and discuss with him the problems and give a helping hand when needed. I always steer clear of workshops that they don't want me to be around while they work on my cars.

I know that the toe in / out changes with suspension compression at the back. While we had the car with the measuring equipment attached we presssed on the car and we could see that angle change. But not much. We set it to zero at static unladen position.

Demetris
 
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