Electronic Ignition

Graeme,
will give that a shot. I'll run a temporary supply to the coil and see if she'll start at the weekend when I'm home. Looking through the wiring diagram I've noticed that all the items on the dash that aren't working, as well as the 'running feed' all come from a common connection point in the loom. It should be fairly easy to find, i hope.
Regards,
Dave
 
The only electronics you can find in my Rover P6 are in the radio, where they belong. The only problems I have with my Rover P6 are mechanical.
 
Hi all,
finally managed to get my head under the bonnet and have a look at my non running V8, if only briefly. Got power to the coil and spun her over. Nothing. Tried again and there was a small ping when i released the key, and the other half thought she heard some thing in the area of the carbs. Got her on the timing mark, with the rotor pointing roughly in the 3 o clock position, moved all the leads back one segment to match, spun over, this time a loud back fire, either through the exhaust or carbs :( . I can only assume now my firing oreder is out? Didn't have time to take the rocker covers off and had left my plug socket in another car so couldn't confirm when no.1 was on the compression stroke (a job for next weekend now). I can only assume now that my dizzy was not fitted in the usual position (no.1 immediately anticlockwise from the front securing clip). I take it no.1 could be falling in any position on the cap now?
Regards,
Dave
 
Re: Electronic Ignition - What am i missing here??

Hi all,
apologies for this long running saga but I'm still in trouble and I'm getting very frustrated with this problem. Most of you at this stage must know the long back round to this issue. Along with our resident expert in Cork I've been through every part of the fuel system from rebuilding the carbs, removing and cleaning the tank, rebuilding the fuel pump, adding an electric pump replacing the filter and the fuel pickup/sender unit. I had the RO setup the carbs from scratch and the ignition a few months ago and the car was perfect, after a short run she was parked in the workshop and left for about 2 weeks. She then started to misfire badly again the next time I fired her up. I fitted electronic ignition (petronix ignitor 2) and she ran much better but still not perfectly. Graeme commented that she sounded like she was down a cylinder so I replaced the leads and cap, she wouldn't fire, got the firing order right :oops: , and she ran but was still rough. I checked and set the dynamic timing (out about 15 deg) over the weekend with no improvement (tried various settings from 8 before up to DTC, engine at 675 rpm with advance pipe disconnected). It seems electrical and I have tried the following; replaced the coil, cap, leads, fitted plug testers to confirm each cylinder is firing, ran a new feed to the coil/ignitor, bypassing the tacho (which has been behaving erratically), ran a seperate feed to the coil and to the ignitor unit, all to no avail. The timing advances up to 12deg @ 2000rpm, which I assume is ok? The plugs have only done a few hundred miles and should be ok. There are no strange noises, rattles, oil pressure issues or signs of blown head gaskets (although I have yet to do a compression test). The heads are only on the car with about 2000 miles (SD1). What am I missing here? Where should I go next (perkins 4108? :mrgreen: ).
Regards,
Dave
 
Its nice to have simple solutions but it sounds like you have done all the easy and likely checks and presupposing that all the done items are 100% of what they should be it may be that the problem may be something that needs invasive investigation, what would spring to my mind might be a timing gear tooth slipped or maybe a worn camshaft ?? where to start I dont know.

Graeme
 
silly question time - is fuel ok? Maybe fire some carb cleaner through the jets see if it comes good?

Rich.
 
rockdemon said:
Also worth putting a jumplead between the engine and the body in case it's a bad earth!

That brings to mind a problem I was having with my Fiat 850 saloon car many years ago, I was at the engine bay starting the engine, with my fingers operating the accelerator cable (solid wire cable) when I burned a groove in my thumb and forefinger on the cable inner, the engine earth strap had gone dodgy and the entire starter motor current was going thru the accelerator cable to start the motor with consequence of a red hot accelerator cable, ouch.

Graeme
 
Lads,
thanks for your replies. Graeme, I'm hoping its not a mechanical issue as the problem has been interrmittant since day one. Also when the car was last parked up it was running 100%. I am going to carry out a compression test though to see if there is another problem. The engine was rebuilt in the recent past. Rich, I added new fuel recently, and have left cars much longer with fuel in the tanks, but I'm going to take your advice on that and get the carb cleaner out! The starter is turning her over very fast which would suggest to me that the main earth is ok. I have however added a second earth within the distributer in case the base plate earthing was the problem. The car is running more or less the same as it was in the video I posted on youtube (see link earlier in this post). The only other odd thing is that the tacho is behaving erratically, but as I've said I've bypassed it and it's made no difference. Altering the timing also made no improvement. One thing I did notice was that with the plug testers fitted no.7 cylinder had a weak spark and what looked like crossfiring, so I refitted the original Molloroy leads, which sorted this problem. I read somewhere else in this forum that there was an issue with plug gaps being too tight with electronic ignition fitted, I take it though that this would only apply if I'd fitted the Flame Thrower as well as the petronix kit? Fitting the kit definately helped, the engine would only barely run before that, so I think I still have an ignition problem. I wounder if I overlooked anything fitting the kit? I wired it as per instructions, the gap looks ok, and I removed the dwell angle adjuster spring and wound the screw right in.
Regards,
Dave
 
Just listened to the youtube clip again and it's hard to pinpoint like you say. PAE had that sort of sounds when one of the carbs wasnt misbehaving because of the throttle linkage being bent etc...
 
rockdemon said:
Just listened to the youtube clip again and it's hard to pinpoint like you say. PAE had that sort of sounds when one of the carbs wasnt misbehaving because of the throttle linkage being bent etc...

Rich,
the camera didn't really pick up the sound that well, I've taken more video last weekend so I'll see what that is like. It's far more noticeable when you stand at the exhaust and listen to her ticking over. She becomes worse as the revs increase, especially under load. I wounder would the colour tune tell me more? The linkages etc do look ok, but one thing that did happen saturday on a number of occassions when the engine was warm i used a little choke to increase the engine speed so I could listen to the exhaust note. On pushing the choke in the engine speed stayed at about 1200rpm and wouldn't drop until i blipped the throttle, at which point the revs fell right down to about 450rpm and she needed another blip to prevent stalling. Then she'd settle back down to about 700rpm idle. Any clues in there? If I did have a fuelling issue would the electronic ignition have improved the running so much?
Regards,
Dave
 
That does sound like what my carbs were doing and it was all about the linkage(low/high revs - not settling right etc) - Chris york posted some great instructinos on how to get this right and with a bit of perseverence it got me there. Cant hurt to give it a shot?

I'll see if i can find you a link....

Rich.
 
The whistling does sound like the key to this. Have you got air filters in place in the housing?

Assuming there are no obvious sources for the whistle then it's back to basics and do the whole thing from scratch. First off is to verify and set the ignition. Start by replacing everything that could conceivably be called a consummable including plug leads, plugs, distributor cap, condensor etc etc.

Once on to the fuel system cleaning on its own is not sufficient. Replace eveything you can. 23 years is ample time for things to quietly corrode to the point of sticking. So fuel pump service kit, floats and float needles in the carbs and have the carbs off the manifold to clean and fit new paper gaskets eveywhere. A good tip to clean any deposits from the inside of the dashpots and pistons is a metal cleaner such as Duraglit.

Then check the piston fall times - take out the return spring and the damper and with dry pistons and dashpots check that both pistons take the same time to drop out of the dashpots. Swap pistons and dashpots to achieve the best match. Check the springs have the same free length before refitting.

Next check the throttle linkage setup. Make sure you have a rubber bush at the bulkhead for the fore and aft accelerator shaft to land in! Then check that pressing the throttle pedal to the floor achieves full throttle at both carbs. Adjust and repair the linkage until it does. Then with the idle screws wound right off check that movement of the throttle linkage from closed cracks both throttles open simultaneously. Now adjust until you get a good compromise between cracking together and full throttle together!

Only now are we on to mixture setting etc. Ideally you would need two colourtune plugs so that you can see what is going on inside the cylinder on cylinders fed by each of the two carbs simultaneously. You are also going to need a means of assesing how much air flow is going into each carb. I used to use the end of a bit of heater delivery hose as a sort of sthethoscope for this.

As stated before, the adjustment on SU's is for idle throttle opening and idle mixture only - not what happens at large throttle openings. That's why we've spent so much time on the linkage etc. The objective now is to set a fairly fast idle - say 900rpm and get the right mixture coming from each carb (blue flame just hinting to orange) against equal air delivery.

Finally you can set up the choke linkage so that both chokes are engaged at the same time.

At any point in this process other faults might become apparent, eg dislodged needles, stuck jets etc. Please don't think that a) the car must have been right when it left the factory or b) just because it's low mileage no deterioration will have occured.

Other possible sources for the whistle might be a leak between the manifold and the cylinder heads or a leak on the vacuum side of the brake servo.

Hope all that helps.

Chris
 
Another more detailed post from Chris York:

Gents

I approach SU tuning from the point of view of an engineering understanding of what the carb is trying to achieve together with highly successful practical experience on an MGC (3ltr staight six).

SU's work on the principle that fuel is let into the engine in response to the level of suction in the inlet manifold. This pulls up the piston pulling the tapered fuel needle out of a hole (the main jet) containing a petrol feed, the more suction the bigger the effective hole to spill petrol into the inlet manifold. The amount of petrol entering the engine is then a function of the suction (aka size of fuel hole) and the amount of airflow. The airflow is a function of engine speed and throttle opening.

So, starting at the beginning, make sure the carbs are in good condition and there are no defects influencing what goes on. You'll need to get fast of a carb overhaul kit - check out http://www.burlen.co.uk/default.aspx for lots of usefull info and spares.

The really important thing to do first is make sure the float chambers are in A1 nick and that the petrol level is correct. You'll want to change the floats and needle cut off valves while doing this. If these are wrong, in worst case the fuel pump is able to just pump straight through into the engine without restriction, or the fuel level in the float chamber will be wrong which will affect the amount of fuel that comes out of the hole (or jet) as the needle is raised. The web site above has all the info you need.

Next check out the throttle butterfly spindles and operation of the various lever mechanisms. Repair any obvious defects, you might finish up needing new spindles or at worst a carburettor body if there is slop or clearance - that would let unplanned air flow into the carb.

Next match the dashpots. I do this by removing the dashpots and pistons from the carbs and removing the oil damper from the top of the dashpot. With everything cleaned up check that the fall time, ie how long it takes the piston to fall out of the dashpot, is the same for both carbs. I'd lay a very large amount of money that it won't be and by quite a big margin. At that point it helps to have a few spare carbs lying around. Simply mix and match dashpots and pistons until you can achieve an identical fall time. The significance of this is that if the fall times are not matched then a given manifold vacuum will cause a diffeerent response from each carb and you'll never be able to set the engine up! I found this to be by far the most critical action with twin SU's and yet I've never seen it written up anywhere.

Next check out the needles, if there is any marking at all on the needles, change them.

Then you are on to the throttle linkage. Everything is unclampable and adjustable, which is great for inveterate fiddlers (like me) but also increases the chances of things having moved! So set up the throttle linkage so that you achieve the best compromise between 1, both throttles crack simultaneously and 2, both throttles reach fully open simultaneously. In theory you should be able to do both but I bet you can't! Sounds basic but you could have lost some of the bushes in the linkage, got a bent rod, things "moved over time" etc etc.

A natural progression at this point is to set the chokes up so both chokes operate together (but getting the idle speed etc set up is for later when the rest of the carbs are set).

Very rarely on the V8 you could also be upset by a defective joint between the carbs and the engine (carburettor to manifold or manifold to head) drawing air in after the carbs.

All carburettor tuning must be done with the ignition system operating as it should - so satisfy yourself on condition of points, plugs and static ignition timing. Its worth checking also that the distributor inertia advance is working (you should be able to twist the plate holding the points against a spring) and the vacuum advance is working (suck down the tube, if nothing happens your ok, if your lucky you might be able to see the baseplate twist a little as well; if you can draw air the diaphragm at the distributor is split).

Now you're on to the exciting bit! Hopefully the engine still runs at this point, so warm it up. You can worry about cold start performance and final setting the chokes up later!

Now you need to be able to asses whether the engine is running weak (too little petrol) mixture or rich (too much petrol). The easiest way of doing this is to use a "colourtune" - a replacement spark plug with a quartz body that lets you see the colour of the flame inside the cylinder. Otherwise an exhaust gas analyser will do the job (but likely to be garage equipment rather than home workshop) but is more difficult because it averages out the two carbs rather than showing you exactly what is happening in one cylinder.

Next set a fastish idle speed (1200rpm?) and use the idle adjustment screws to get the same amount of air going down each carb. With the air cleaner off just use a piece of old heater hose to listen to the airflow into each carb - a bit like a doctor's stethoscope - and get the wheezing the same. Then use the colourtune to set the first carb's mixture so that the flame is just on the point of turning from blue to orange. Swap the colourtune into a cylinder fed by the other carb and repeat. The airflow will now be wrong so you need to reset that and then go on and check the mixture again. Repeat until everything is correct at the same time, then reset the idle speed back to normal, again re-balancing the airflows.

That process is often referred to as balancing or tuning the carbs, but note that it only looks after low throttle running and response from idling. The work you did earlier with the throttle linkage and piston fall time is what counts when you're pedal to the metal!

Finally it is time to set up the choke response and there I would simply follow the manual.

This process is identical for the 4 cylinder engine, but there you could also be upset by a defective or missing heat shield between the carbs and the exhaust manifold.

Once you understand the principle here, its all very simple, if a little time consuming.

Note I haven't mentioned the dashpot lift pin once! So what is it there for? Well if all the peceding had been completed (or was 100% on a new car set ex factory) you would still expect the mixture setting of the carbs to drift slightly, especially during the running in period. So the lift pin test allows you to asses the state of the mixture setting alone on an otherwise perfectly set up engine. In other words it's a quick dodge to use at the first service after running in!

Chris
 
Rich,
thanks for the info, looks like i'm going to be busy. Have new video of her running now which I'll upload later, gives a better idea of how she sounds.
Regards,
Dave
 
12 degree btdc at full revs is definitely not all right! Referring to the workshop manual engine tuning data section page 05-2 the centrifugal timing should vary from 0 btdc up to as much as 30 degree btdc according to which distributor you have. The vacuum advance isn't quoted anyhere I can find, but should be of the order of another 20 degree on top of the centrifugal.

I think I'd want to be sure of what you are describing with the timing first - it can be notoriously confusing to describe what you are doing. Since you can't now set timing statically, you must be very sure that the engine is turning as slowly as possible. The idea is to set the timing at an engine speed before the centrifugal advamce starts to have any effect. This will kick in by 800rpm. The book therefore quotes 600rpm for setting, but if you can get it to run slower that is all to the better. Whether you set this value to 6 btdc or 0 btdc depends on what compression engine you have and what fuel you want to use. 10.5:1 and octane booster gives 6 btdc, no octane booster gives 0 btdc. 9.25:1 should be happy running on modern Super grade so 6 btdc unless you have ambition to run on regular in which case 0 btdc. With SD1 heads you'd probably finish up around 9.35:1 so a bit marginal on Super.

At the other end of the range, you should see an increase in advance of between 24 and 28 degrees above your idle setting by 4,500 rpm. In both cases the book recommends that the engine is revved higher first and allowed to settle back to the quoted speed. I'd go a little further and simply say it should consistant whatever you do with the engine.

Supposing your engine is not behaving in this manner then you need to take a look at the centrifugal advance mechanism. As with all things Lucas, this is devastatingly simple! The pressed steel plate onto which you have located your Pertronix, is not fixed. It can rotate around the shaft. Underneath is a pair (they had to balance it, otherwise there would only have been one!) of weights hinged at one end and restrained by a spring at the other. These rotate with the shaft, so at high speed swing outwards against the springs. When they do this they rotate the base plate against a return spring.

It's all pretty simple to dismantle, then you are looking for anything which might cause either the plate rotation or the swing of the weights to be sticky. Everything must therefore be clean and grease free. just the mearest touch of a light machine oil such as 3 in 1.

In the process you'll have had to unhook the vacuum advance. So you might as well check this too. Just suck on the pipe and you should be able to rotate the base plate. When reassembling make sure there are no leaks in the vaccuum tube.

If I've read your description correctly you may well find something adrift through this!

Just to complete the job have a look at the quality of the HT side - cap and leads and rotor arm. The V8 is extremely sensitive to cross firing - sparking from one cylinder to another. This mainly happens between the leads, so you can't use enough separator blocks, and you need to start with high quality leads. Magnecor give an excellent improvement but they are expensive. Just try not to judge them by comparison to other lead sets - all are not equal! The inside of the cap neads very carefull inspection. Any evidence at all of spark tracking or build up on the terminals and change the cap. If you've got this far it isn't a big step to change the rotor, so do it. After all this run the engine on a damp evening and look under the bonnet for sparks anywhere on the system.

Now there is only the coil left, and I think you said you changed that? Try the old one back again! With all ignition components the most likely failure time is immediately after first fitting! For the condensor this rises to a near certainty - but you don't have one of those any more! Moreover failure is rarely a 100% failure. But often an intermittent one.

Only thing left is the electrical suply to the coil. Perhaps put a bulb in parallel and have a look at night and see if you can see any flicker? And do check over the fuse box and make sure you have all the correct length fusues and all the holders are nice and tight.

Sorry if I taught Grandma to suck eggs, but when you get to this stage it's as well to start at the beginning!
 
Hi Chris - Hope you didnt mind me reposting your work there :)

Given the number of times the carb and ignition problems seem to crop up here can I suggest these posts could be made 'sticky'? They're really well written and very methodical and have helped me loads!

Rich.
 
Perhaps after all this lot there are now two engine checks that ought to be done - a compression check on all cylinders and a check that all the valves are working. For the latter have the rocker covers off and run the engine (slowly - in case you get an egine bay oil wash!). You should be getting the same movement on all the valves. If you're not then either you have a failed hydraulic lifter or a worn cam lobe.

Last thing to say is DON'T PANIC. Engines are fundamentally very simple.

Chris
 
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