Electronic Ignition

chrisyork said:
There are two Mallory systems for the V8. The Unilite Electronic and the Twin Point. The Unilite is an extremely expensive solution to going electronic and I would discount. However the Twin Point is the Rolls Royce of Rover V8 ignition solutions provided you use an ignition amplifier with it. Otherwise you're back to the old routine of point changing, just with twice as many! The twin point is so much better because it both eliminates point bounce and also gives a clean signal for the electronics. And it has a superior distributor cap - very important with the V8. But both are up against stiff competition compared to £30 for a SimonBBC!

Chris
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Right. Are there any modern distributor-less all-electronic ignition/injection systems for the RV8?
 
EccentricRichard wrote,...
Right. Are there any modern distributor-less all-electronic ignition/injection systems for the RV8?
Click to expand...

Hello Richard,

From circa 1994, the 4.0 and 4.6 litre engines used in the Land Rover Discovery and Range Rover ran wih engine management systems that required no distributor. So the timing covers were designed without such provision, the camshafts have no nose and the oil pumps are driven from the crankshaft.

Ron.
 
dmcsweeney wrote,...
Ron,
I still have the option of reverting to the original ballasted feed very easily, all I did was unplug it at both ends, All I'd have to do is plug it in at the rear of the tacho and then at the coil. I've spoken to the original owner about the luminition kit that was in the car, which he still has, but he said it was causing running problems before removal, and immediately prior to removal the segmented wheel in the dizzy became brittle and lost too teeth. While the system sounds excellent, I'd still be faced with the external unit. Still haven't ordered anything but planning on doing it tonite. Thanks again.
Regards,
Dave
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Hello Dave,

The Lumenition chopper should be changed every 10 years or so as the plastic from which it is made does suffer from pyrolysis. They are cheap and readily available and can be changed as quickly as fitting a new rotor.

Where was the power module fitted?

Ron.
 
Gents,
thanks for your replies.

dmcsweeney said:
Not near the cars at the moment, but i Know that the '72 one has the points with the locating pin, which look the same as the ones on Stans car in the pictures. I don't think I've got the triangular plate. Also, from memory the red '73 car has the same points, but the locating pin is ground off.
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Got home yesterday afternoon and checked the car, must be losing my mind, the dizzy has a triangular plate on it!! That eliminates the simonbbc/accuspark systems then I guess, think I'll be ordering the Ignitor I or II then!
Regards,
Dave
 
Hi all,
finally got around to ordering today. Ignitor II on the way :D . Due in a week, will keep you posted on the results.
Regards,
Dave
 
Did you order the ignitor II coil as well? may as well go for max zap on the plugs.

graeme
 
ghce said:
Did you order the ignitor II coil as well? may as well go for max zap on the plugs.

graeme
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I'm assuming those coils are similar, if not the same as, the ones sold for aircooled Volkswagen applications. There have been many reports of them failing prematurely on Aircooled VWs, although perhaps the quality control has been improved or there are reasons for the failures which might not affect a P6.

Either way, I'm somewhat sceptical of the claims of a 'bigger' spark, as the mixture only needs to be ignited once, and I'm sceptical over whether the would make any significant difference. Same goes for plugs with more than one tip claiming to give a performance boost (although these should theoretically give longer plug life).

I would certainly prioritise good quality HT leads over a shiny ignition coil. Don't forget it is the HT leads which actually provide the current to the spark plug. :)
 
ghce said:
Did you order the ignitor II coil as well? may as well go for max zap on the plugs.

graeme
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Graeme,
hope I'm not going to regret it but for now I've stuck with the brand new 12V coil I've recently fitted. 've already had one expensive 'high performance' coil fail (totally unrelated to this manufacturer by the way, and it was a dry coil) so I'll hold off for now. I'll fit the kit first and take it from there! I'm hoping for far smoother running and that the engine finally performs properly for the first time as I've always been a little disappointed with it in comparison to my red car, particularly at higher revs.
Regards,
Dave
 
Hi Dave, the standard coil will run fine with the ignitorII, I changed my perfectly working good standard ignition unit which I tested on a tune scope that profiled all 8 spark plug leads their peak voltages and decay curves plus there timing and dwell so I know my old existing system was 100% of what it should be, no improvement to make...when I changed ignition over to the pertonix unit II unit I noted a performance increase in the available powerband, I havent done any MPG checks yet as I have changed a few other things at the same time so any MPG efficency gains I am unable to quantify.

I suspect that the higher voltage may help with a plug fouling problem that used to occur with poor blends of unleaded fuel and my old (now gone) SU carbs. Hotter longer spark does help with better fuel burning of that there is little doubt and there is much info available on spark length, spark energy , duration and there effect on flame front combustion efficiency around so I wont reproduce it here :)


Graeme
 
Hi all,
got my new toy yesterday (ignitor II)! :D . Fitted it today (rushed job) and fired her up. Massive improvement in running but still not complete right. She still seems to have a slight misfire which I'm hoping to investigate next weekend. I'm starting to think that there may be some issue in the 12V side of the ignition. I've noticed as well, as before i fitted the kit, that the rev counter is behaving erratically, as you should be able to see in the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4RZPi_rzsY
The misfire is not as noticeable in the clip, but is definately there. The ignitor/coil share a common 12V supply from the back of the rev counter, and I'm starting to wounder if the issue is here. I have been experiencing electrical problems in the instrument cluster (no warning lights, fuel gauge or temp gauge - loose connection as far as I know). Will have the dash out to check as soon as I can. Is it possible that a faulty rev counter could effect running?
Regards,
Dave
 
Hi Dave, good to hear and see some V8 action, the exhaust note sounds like you are running only on 7 cylinders. The big miss on your RPM dial is a worry too, when I fitted mine I took the +12 supply off the handily placed washer bottle. On my cars wiring the Tacho is only a voltage sense and does not have any supply voltage current considerations for the ignition, indeed the factory wiring diagram tells porkies as to how the car is wired, mine is the later 1974/5 wiring. Did you btpass the ballast?

Graeme
 
ghce said:
Hi Dave, good to hear and see some V8 action, the exhaust note sounds like you are running only on 7 cylinders. The big miss on your RPM dial is a worry too, when I fitted mine I took the +12 supply off the handily placed washer bottle. On my cars wiring the Tacho is only a voltage sense and does not have any supply voltage current considerations for the ignition, indeed the factory wiring diagram tells porkies as to how the car is wired, mine is the later 1974/5 wiring. Did you btpass the ballast?

Graeme
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Graeme,
I'll stick my plug testers on each cylinder tomorrow and see if they are getting spark. I'm going to change the leads next week along with the cap and see what happens as well (P6 number 3 needs a new cap and leads anyway so I need to buy a new set). I bypassed the ballast resistor cable last year, supplying 12V to the coil. The ballast resistor cable in my car runs from the rear of the tacho to the coil. There are 2 positive connections to the coil, one from the starter, which is energied during cranking, and the other from the tacho. My '73 car takes the supply for the coil from the ignition, and the tacho is operated from the negative side of the coil if memory serves correctly. Must look at the diagram for that one again though as it's been 3 years since I bypassed the ballast on that. I can try switching the 12V supply for the ignitor to the washer pump to see what happens.
Regards,
Dave
 
Hi all,
got new leads and a cap and set about fitting them, somehow managed to mix up one or two clyinders as I went, stopped and check the other 2 cars, installed according to the firing order on the manifold. She spun and spun but absolutely no attempt to fire. Switched on the ignition and no power at the coil, had the other half crank it over and still no power at the coil. Cheecked the meter, working fine. I have been having some electrical problems - no temp or fuel guages, irratic tacho, no warning lights working, no dipped beams, headlights only work (and only for a second when the stalk is pulled back, accompanied by frying sound from the main light switch! Have been through the wiring diagram and I'm happy that all the problems (bar the lights of course - bad connection at the switch, but I'm going to install relays to protect the head/dip switch as well) are related. The part I can't understand is why I'm getting no 12V supply at the coil when I crank, it's totally unrelated to the running supply. I'm planning to rip the dash apart at the weekend and work my way through the loom logically to find the problem. Out of interest though, has anyone had a similar experience?
Regards,
Dave
 
dmcsweeney wrote,...
I'm getting no 12V supply at the coil when I crank
Click to expand...

Hello Dave,

When you move the ignition key against the ignition switch spring pressure and engage the starter motor, 12 volts should then be applied directly to the positive side of the coil. This comes directly from the starter motor, the connection running from the starter motor to the coil. When the engine fires, the ignition key moves back thus disconnecting supply to the starter relay which in turn drops out thereby cutting the supply to the starter motor solenoid. The starter motor retracts and the 12 volt supply to the coil is disconnected, leaving the normal running voltage supplied. This may or may not be via a ballast resistor, depending on the individual set up.

So I would check the connection at the starter motor Dave, the low tension side from the solenoid which connects with the positive side of the coil.

Ron.
 
Dave you must always have +12 on the ignition coil. I take it that your measurment point is the +terminal on the coil? Even if the whole ignition system is custard you should always see volts to the +on the coil as this is the battery supply point to the whole ignition system. I would suggest that you could as a temporary measure connect to the washer bottle + terminal, provided you can measure +12 at this point, this will at least ensure you can start the car to confirm that the rest of the system is OK.
Failing to find your +12 at the coil I would look as Ron has suggested above
Graeme
 
SydneyRoverP6B said:
dmcsweeney wrote,...
I'm getting no 12V supply at the coil when I crank
Click to expand...

Hello Dave,

When you move the ignition key against the ignition switch spring pressure and engage the starter motor, 12 volts should then be applied directly to the positive side of the coil. This comes directly from the starter motor, the connection running from the starter motor to the coil. When the engine fires, the ignition key moves back thus disconnecting supply to the starter relay which in turn drops out thereby cutting the supply to the starter motor solenoid. The starter motor retracts and the 12 volt supply to the coil is disconnected, leaving the normal running voltage supplied. This may or may not be via a ballast resistor, depending on the individual set up.

So I would check the connection at the starter motor Dave, the low tension side from the solenoid which connects with the positive side of the coil.

Ron.
Click to expand...
Thanks Ron,
that is how i understood the system worked. I have by passed the ballast already with a cable from the tacho to the coil +. I find it strange though that I could lose two totally seperate supplies at once. I was so supprised I checked the meter (professional fluke unit, recently tested and certified by our instrumentation division) and it worked fine. Of course the other two meters and voltage probes in the boot all had dead batteries!

ghce said:
Dave you must always have +12 on the ignition coil. I take it that your measurment point is the +terminal on the coil? Even if the whole ignition system is custard you should always see volts to the +on the coil as this is the battery supply point to the whole ignition system. I would suggest that you could as a temporary measure connect to the washer bottle + terminal, provided you can measure +12 at this point, this will at least ensure you can start the car to confirm that the rest of the system is OK.
Failing to find your +12 at the coil I would look as Ron has suggested above
Graeme
Click to expand...

Thanks Gaeme,
as I understand it I should only get 12V with the ignition in position 2 or the engine cranking over. I checked the voltage from the positive side to the coil bracket, tried the block, rocker covers and dizzy for an earth reference point as well just in case my meter wasn't earthing properly. TBH I find it very odd. Suppose for a minute my meter was dodgy, and 12V is present, if when i fitted the leads to the cap I was one segment out on the cap, ie i put no. 1 lead in position 8, would I at least get a cough? I know the firing order was right, i took it in a clockwise direction, with no.1 cylinder and number 8 cylinders falling either side of the front cap retaining clip. No 1 cylinder being the front plug on the RHS bank facing the engine, and no. 2 being the front LHS. Sound right?
Regards,
Dave
 
Yes that sounds right to me for the plug position and rotor position, you are quite right you only get the +12 with the ign key switched on in either run or start, the voltage reading may be a smidge down on run as the winding resistance of the start soliniod will have a small but only negligable differnce in proportion to the coil resistance.

Another suggestion is to wire the ignitor II up as per the factory supplied diagram, your tacho may or may not work depending on factory wiring option but once again confirms the state of the rest of the ignition system.

As you are not seeing volts to the coil you can probably discount the rest of the system until you actually get volts to the coil.

Graeme
 
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