Bright ideas needed, please.

Hensen1954

Hensen1954

Active Member
My gearbox drive flange is 16 inches higher and 10.5 inches in front the the axle flange.

I dont want to drop the engines, etc down, and even if I did, they would not align all that well with the axle flange, so I am looking for ways to do basically a Z drive, in the space available. My best thoughts so far, are a cog on the back of the box flange, and a chain down to another cog, which will drive a short propshaft with a slide joint built in.

Anybody got one in their back pocket or another idea to save time and hair pulling ??


Roverdriveshafts001.jpg


Roverdriveshafts005.jpg


Roverdriveshafts008.jpg
 
Find a divorced transfer box and use that. You might have to modify it's lubrication as it would be on end rather than level but that shouldn't be a problem. Or if you were using a BW65 you could use an Ashcroft conversion and spin the transfer box around.

The only problem is that the output from the transfer will be so close to the diff flange that you won't be able to accomodate the diff rising and falling on the springs, but you won't be able to do that whatever method you use as the distance between the flanges won't be enough.

External chain drives always give problems.
 
Hmm, a challenge!

Is there a reason for the driveline to remain at that height like aesthetics or is there another reason?

Looking at the first pic, if the diff was turned up 45 degrees, it would point diagonally torwards the gearbox output shaft, in that situation a constant velocity joint would be ideal, but I can't think of anything that would be suitable in that environment with the constant loading, angle and axle movement. Even a double cardon joint would be too long to work.

Thinking about it more, how about flip the axle to point rearwards, add a short chain or gear drive with a short carrier shaft attached to the top of the diff and axle casing, then you will have more length and less of an angle for the propshaft to run at, if done well would be an amazing engineering feature to show off 8)
 
sowen said:
Thinking about it more, how about flip the axle to point rearwards, add a short chain or gear drive with a short carrier shaft attached to the top of the diff and axle casing, then you will have more length and less of an angle for the propshaft to run at, if done well would be an amazing engineering feature to show off 8)
Click to expand...

Simon, that would also reverse the rotation of the wheels!
One solution to this could be using the front axle from a Land - Rover, but as these are offset to the right it is not going to be straightforward.
I don't know if it's possible to mix n' match a front diff with a rear axle though.
 
Demetris said:
sowen said:
Thinking about it more, how about flip the axle to point rearwards, add a short chain or gear drive with a short carrier shaft attached to the top of the diff and axle casing, then you will have more length and less of an angle for the propshaft to run at, if done well would be an amazing engineering feature to show off 8)
Click to expand...

Simon, that would also reverse the rotation of the wheels!
One solution to this could be using the front axle from a Land - Rover, but as these are offset to the right it is not going to be straightforward.
I don't know if it's possible to mix n' match a front diff with a rear axle though.
Click to expand...

Depends which way you flip it :wink:
 
Have looked at axle rotation etc, and done the calcs, best result is a prop joint angle of 24 degrees, which aint good. Thought about turning the axle vertical and going for a right angle drive - they do exist, but then have other problems. Chains seem the best so far, and an 8 inch - approx - propshaft.
 
sowen said:
Demetris said:
sowen said:
Thinking about it more, how about flip the axle to point rearwards, add a short chain or gear drive with a short carrier shaft attached to the top of the diff and axle casing, then you will have more length and less of an angle for the propshaft to run at, if done well would be an amazing engineering feature to show off 8)
Click to expand...

Simon, that would also reverse the rotation of the wheels!
One solution to this could be using the front axle from a Land - Rover, but as these are offset to the right it is not going to be straightforward.
I don't know if it's possible to mix n' match a front diff with a rear axle though.
Click to expand...

Depends which way you flip it :wink:
Click to expand...

OK, i get you now, but in this case the diff will run backwards when it was not really designed to do so full time and am not sure if it will take the strain.
Obviously the vehicle will sound like it is reversing all the time, however, perhaps this doesn't matter much in this kind of vehicle!
 
Demetris said:
OK, i get you now, but in this case the diff will run backwards when it was not really designed to do so full time and am not sure if it will take the strain.
Obviously the vehicle will sound like it is reversing all the time, however, perhaps this doesn't matter much in this kind of vehicle!
Click to expand...

Hi, all Land Rover/Range Rover front diff's run 'backwards', Yes, they are not designed to run
backwards but they dont bear a grudge and cope with it well. The sound a car makes when
reversing is due to the fact reverse gear is usually straight cut which are noisier than helical
cut gears.

Colin
 
Especially bearing in mind the power transmission requirement, I definitely wouldn't set sail on a do it yourself solution without a great deal of preparation and expert advice.

I'm not sure how things are tackled in the US, but the bus and coach industry in the UK use some spectacularely tortuous drivetrains. I recall a Dennis chassis, for use in a superior long distance coach, that had a transverse rear mounted engine that drove through three right angle drives onto the front of the rear axle, with a transmission lurking in one of the slave legs! So how about a trip down to a bus and coach graveyard to see what they have?

It might also assist matters to use a commercial transmission in place of the original Borg Warner. In the rail industry such transmissions would typically have a high level input and low level output exactly as you require. Perhaps the construction plant industry use similar? Again, a trip to a scrappy sounds a good plan.

Chris
 
How about changing the angle of the engine and box? That might bring the end of the box down to the level of the diff. How much suspension movement is there going to be?

If untiltable, then I'd go for a vertical transfer box and either reduce travel on the susp or make the whole thing a bit longer.

Front diff from a landy is a nice idea, I'm not sure how strong they are in a 2wd setup, being originally designed for half the torque from a landy engine. I know the later half shafts will struggle if used in a 2wd application.
 
CV joint - now thats a clever idea - just the type of thought I was looking for.

Progress has been made, spoke to a chain and sprocket company that makes such a thing for the vintage Morgans, so it looks like they will be able to help me out. Sent them photos and dimensions, so expecting an answer soon. Will keep everyone up to speed on progress.
 
I take it you'd still need a short propshaft with flexible joints at either end (UJ or CV) to allow for the axle's movement on its suspension?
 
You know, I can't help thinking that if I was doing this, I'd cut the back end off that chassis and discard that axle and suspension. Then I'd wheel up the rear quarter of a Land Rover or Range Rover rolling chassis, lower the back of your chassis until your output shaft lined up with the new diff, leave enough of a gap for a propshaft and weld them together. It would mean your chassis, engines, etc would tilt down at the back, but would that really matter? You'd end up with a much simpler and more robust drive-train.
 
Willy Eckerslyke said:
You know, I can't help thinking that if I was doing this, I'd cut the back end off that chassis and discard that axle and suspension. Then I'd wheel up the rear quarter of a Land Rover or Range Rover rolling chassis, lower the back of your chassis until your output shaft lined up with the new diff, leave enough of a gap for a propshaft and weld them together. It would mean your chassis, engines, etc would tilt down at the back, but would that really matter? You'd end up with a much simpler and more robust drive-train.
Click to expand...

Hi, the trouble with doing that is that it moves you into a whole new ball game. He is, I guess wanting to
keep the identity of the chassis, so he can't cut the chassis about in any way, in fact he cant even cut that
crossmember. The rules state you can add to the chassis but you can't remove, if you do, you then have to
go for a BIVA test and could lose the number plate and end up on a 'Q' plate.

Hensen 1954 A chain drive system is probably the simplest way to drop the drive in the space available, in
fact I think it will be very tight even then. I would suggest rather than getting chains and sprockets from
specialist, That you obain a transfer box from a late Range Rover classic because they are chain drive and
it will also give you bearing carriers, shafts, flanges and a case to modify. Because these all have to be sourced
and paid for.

Good luck with this project. Are you willing to expand on what you are building?

Colin
 
Road graders use a chain drive to the rear drive wheels, so nothing new there.
You will need a multiplex chain and the matching sprockets in a suitable housing
to keep road dirt off them and, ideally, to hold oil to keep the whole plot lubed up.

It could play out nicely if you need to fiddle your ratios to get higher/lower shaft
speeds with the sprockets at the same time.

You may also want to consider moving the drive forward and then swinging back
to the rear with another chain transfer drive to allow for the required shaft movement
so you don't start eating universal joints.

Either way, it looks like a really nice challenge to get your teeth into, good luck and have fun!! :D
 
Hi all .
That looks like a challenge eh ? Couple of things came to mind . I've no idea of the engineering or the parts needed .
From the look of it it is pretty high at the back ?
1 ) Is it possible to drop the drive down off the output shaft of the box to a point just under that cross member ( chain drive or another method ) run it forward through a shaft a suitable distance forward to a fabricated cross member under the rear engine and then turn it back round again towards the rear axle flange ? That idea is a bit complicated but would put a propeller shaft in line with the axle .
2 ) Much simpler if it can be done ( sure Harvey would know if it's possible ) How about mounting the gearbox under the cross member lining the output flange up with the axle flange , and driving the gear box from the back of the motor via a chain drive dropped down ? Guessing the torque converter would remain in the cover on the front of the box and some way to drive the pump .
No idea of the engineering involved , or if it's possible . But each option would give room for a decent length prop , and sliding joint plus UJ's to allow for axle / suspension movement .
Just a thought :D
 
here's an even crazier idea.

Take one of the boxes to bits and find the pipe that is the output from the front pump. (this plan will collapse instantly if there isn't one!)

Have the front pump on the back of the engine, then with the swift application of some cleverness run some hydraulic lines from the pump output and input (actually this is sounding worse as I write it...:oops: )

Pop the rest of the gearbox on the diff. sorted. Suspension movement is taken care of in the hydraulic lines.

Then sort the kickdown stuff by some kind of magic.

Beat that for a crazy plan. :? :LOL:
 
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