Hello. I am starting to think my gearbox is really well and truly on its last legs, very noisy in all gears except 4th. So my question is and apologies if its been asked before, is it possible to remove the box without removing the engine? I am loathe to take the engine and box out together as my facilities are poor and although undercover, height may be a problem if lifting out the entire combo. Thanks for any help in advance.
2200TC gearbox removal
- Thread starter Stephen79
- Start date
Thanks for the reply Harvey. I have ramps and axle stands so sounds good to me! The plan is to remove the box, replace the bearings and refit it over the autumn/winter. The car needs plenty of other minor jobs as I just don't get to drive it as much as I would like, a shame really and it's currently sitting out exposed to the elements which is not helping the paintwork or webasto roof.. Thanks in advance for advice on removal.
I did this last year on my 2200TC and its a pig of a job but it can be done. If you have help or a ramp or pit I'd say go for it, but if you are doing the job on your own I'd seriously think about pulling the engine.
The problem on the 4 cylinder cars is that the box won't just slide off you need to rotate it to clear the base unit and its very tight; Its even worse putting it back in because you need to manhandle the box and insert the input shaft at the same time. The angle of the engine is also critical.
The haynes manual recommends removing the engine leaving the gearbox in place then removing the gearbox after and on balance I'd agree. It might be more work but if you have/can get hold of a hoist its easy and there are no unknowns. You could be scratching around under the car for ages trying to get the box out and then back in.
If you do decide to do it this way here is the basic procedure:-
Raise front and rear of car on axle stands or ramps as high as you can.
In Engine bay
Drain coolant, Remove top hose and fan, Remove cam cover, loosen engine mountings, Disconnect front engine tie rod, disconnect accelerate linkage. remove carb heatshield.
Inside car
Remove speaker grill, Unscrew gear knob, remove chrome ferrule, plastic reverse collar and spring, remove centre console.
Remove rubber doughnut, remove three bolts securing gearlever in gearbox remote and withdraw lever complete with white plastic bush.
Under car
Disconnect propshaft at front sliding joint and tie out of the way, drain gearbox oil. Remove exhaust straight section from manifold to gearbox. Unbolt starter motor and withdraw but don't remove
Unbolt clutch slave cyl and tie up.
Unscrew and remove the rear gearbox crossbar which goes through the snub rubber. Support the weight of the gearbox on a trolley jack. Remove rear mounting and spring arrangement.
Lower the gearbox on jack, disconnect reversing switch wires and speedo drive when accessible. Have a helper watch the bulkhead area from above, watchout for the throttle linkage its easily broken.
The engine will tip right back. Keep going until you can see all the bellhousing bolts. Remove bell housing bolts some from top some from bottom.
ONE OF THE BELL HOUSING BOLTS IS VIRTUALLY INACCESSIBLE ON THE TC DUE TO THE CARBS AND INLET MANIFOLD. YOU NEED TO GET A SPANNER ON THE NUT AND A SPANNER ON THE BOLT TO REMOVE IT BUT THERE IS ONLY ENOUGH ROOM FOR ONE HAND. ITS NOT ACCESSIBLE FROM BELOW. I MESSED ABOUT FOR HOURS TRYING TO REMOVE THIS BOLT KNEELING ON THE SLAM PANEL STRETCHING OVER TO THE REAR OF THE ENGINE BAY. REMEMBER THE ENGINE IS TILTED AND THE CAR IS ON AXLE STANDS. I HAD A PAINFUL BACK FOR WEEKS AFTER.
AT ONE POINT I CONSIDERED REMOVING THE CARBS BUT I FINALLY REMOVED IT BY FITTING A DUAL OFFSET RING SPANNER TO THE BOLT AND TIE WRAPPING THE OTHER END TO THE INLET MANIFOLD TO HOLD IT, THEN USED A RATCHET RING SPANNER ON THE NUT.
The difficult bit
With the jack supporting the weight of the gearbox pull the gearbox backwards until the starter hump in the bell housing contacts the baseunit. Then rotate the gearbox clockwise 90 Degrees so the hump aligns with the trans tunnel. Slide the gearbox backwards to disengage and lower to the ground.
The even more difficult bit
Fit and align new clutch
Manhandle box into position.
You may need to use a jack or pry bars to tilt and lock the engine in position.
Manhandle the box into position. The hump must be aligned with trans tunnel.
Lift the box and offer it up to the engine. Once it starts to engage rotate it clockwise and push it fully home. DO NOT ALLOW THE WEIGHT OF THE BOX TO HANG ON THE INPUT SHAFT
TO DO THIS YOU NEED TO LIFT THE BOX AT THE RIGHT ANGLE, ACCURATELY POSITION THE INPUT SHAFT THEN ROTATE IT. YOU CAN'T USE A JACK BECAUSE THERE IS NO ROOM. A HELPER IS ALSO IN THE WAY. IT IS NOT EASY.
The problem on the 4 cylinder cars is that the box won't just slide off you need to rotate it to clear the base unit and its very tight; Its even worse putting it back in because you need to manhandle the box and insert the input shaft at the same time. The angle of the engine is also critical.
The haynes manual recommends removing the engine leaving the gearbox in place then removing the gearbox after and on balance I'd agree. It might be more work but if you have/can get hold of a hoist its easy and there are no unknowns. You could be scratching around under the car for ages trying to get the box out and then back in.
If you do decide to do it this way here is the basic procedure:-
Raise front and rear of car on axle stands or ramps as high as you can.
In Engine bay
Drain coolant, Remove top hose and fan, Remove cam cover, loosen engine mountings, Disconnect front engine tie rod, disconnect accelerate linkage. remove carb heatshield.
Inside car
Remove speaker grill, Unscrew gear knob, remove chrome ferrule, plastic reverse collar and spring, remove centre console.
Remove rubber doughnut, remove three bolts securing gearlever in gearbox remote and withdraw lever complete with white plastic bush.
Under car
Disconnect propshaft at front sliding joint and tie out of the way, drain gearbox oil. Remove exhaust straight section from manifold to gearbox. Unbolt starter motor and withdraw but don't remove
Unbolt clutch slave cyl and tie up.
Unscrew and remove the rear gearbox crossbar which goes through the snub rubber. Support the weight of the gearbox on a trolley jack. Remove rear mounting and spring arrangement.
Lower the gearbox on jack, disconnect reversing switch wires and speedo drive when accessible. Have a helper watch the bulkhead area from above, watchout for the throttle linkage its easily broken.
The engine will tip right back. Keep going until you can see all the bellhousing bolts. Remove bell housing bolts some from top some from bottom.
ONE OF THE BELL HOUSING BOLTS IS VIRTUALLY INACCESSIBLE ON THE TC DUE TO THE CARBS AND INLET MANIFOLD. YOU NEED TO GET A SPANNER ON THE NUT AND A SPANNER ON THE BOLT TO REMOVE IT BUT THERE IS ONLY ENOUGH ROOM FOR ONE HAND. ITS NOT ACCESSIBLE FROM BELOW. I MESSED ABOUT FOR HOURS TRYING TO REMOVE THIS BOLT KNEELING ON THE SLAM PANEL STRETCHING OVER TO THE REAR OF THE ENGINE BAY. REMEMBER THE ENGINE IS TILTED AND THE CAR IS ON AXLE STANDS. I HAD A PAINFUL BACK FOR WEEKS AFTER.
AT ONE POINT I CONSIDERED REMOVING THE CARBS BUT I FINALLY REMOVED IT BY FITTING A DUAL OFFSET RING SPANNER TO THE BOLT AND TIE WRAPPING THE OTHER END TO THE INLET MANIFOLD TO HOLD IT, THEN USED A RATCHET RING SPANNER ON THE NUT.
The difficult bit
With the jack supporting the weight of the gearbox pull the gearbox backwards until the starter hump in the bell housing contacts the baseunit. Then rotate the gearbox clockwise 90 Degrees so the hump aligns with the trans tunnel. Slide the gearbox backwards to disengage and lower to the ground.
The even more difficult bit
Fit and align new clutch
Manhandle box into position.
You may need to use a jack or pry bars to tilt and lock the engine in position.
Manhandle the box into position. The hump must be aligned with trans tunnel.
Lift the box and offer it up to the engine. Once it starts to engage rotate it clockwise and push it fully home. DO NOT ALLOW THE WEIGHT OF THE BOX TO HANG ON THE INPUT SHAFT
TO DO THIS YOU NEED TO LIFT THE BOX AT THE RIGHT ANGLE, ACCURATELY POSITION THE INPUT SHAFT THEN ROTATE IT. YOU CAN'T USE A JACK BECAUSE THERE IS NO ROOM. A HELPER IS ALSO IN THE WAY. IT IS NOT EASY.
Demetris
Well-Known Member
Yep, it is almost just as bad. There are a couple of things to do to make it easier but not much so.
In order to hold the engine at the correct angle you can bolt the upper hole on the steady bracket with the lower hole on the cylinder head. This was a tip from Harvey.
Also it's worth removing the starter and its difficult bolts before raising the front of the car and tilting the engine. The same applies to some of the difficult to reach engine to gearbox bolts, like the upper ones. I didn't had to remove the rocker cover, but i had to disconnect the propshaft from the diff end remove it completely.
While refitting the gearbox when i gave up trying to balance it on a trolley jack at the correct angle, i just lied on my back under the car hugging the gearbox and lifted it with my hands. This worked, but i had to be quick before my arms gave up.
The whole procedure i can imagine that will be a lot easier in a pit or the car raised on a 2/4 post with an assistant.
If not, i would look to borrow or hire an engine hoist and remove everything from above.
In order to hold the engine at the correct angle you can bolt the upper hole on the steady bracket with the lower hole on the cylinder head. This was a tip from Harvey.
Also it's worth removing the starter and its difficult bolts before raising the front of the car and tilting the engine. The same applies to some of the difficult to reach engine to gearbox bolts, like the upper ones. I didn't had to remove the rocker cover, but i had to disconnect the propshaft from the diff end remove it completely.
While refitting the gearbox when i gave up trying to balance it on a trolley jack at the correct angle, i just lied on my back under the car hugging the gearbox and lifted it with my hands. This worked, but i had to be quick before my arms gave up.
The whole procedure i can imagine that will be a lot easier in a pit or the car raised on a 2/4 post with an assistant.
If not, i would look to borrow or hire an engine hoist and remove everything from above.
If you find doing them that way difficult then you obviously haven't done enough of them.....
Nothing is difficult, you just need to make sure that you do everything right because they are quite tight. I never remove the fan, or the cam cover, or the centre console, or drain the gearbox oil, or the coolant for that matter (just remove the top hose at the rad). The biggest problem on a TC can be the manifold to frontpipe joint.
If you've ever done gearboxes that are really difficult to remove, they're easy by comparison.
It's a very light box, and I never had any problems lifting them out and back in on my own, and even though I'm an old git and out of practice now, I'd still be able to do it.
Back in the day if you got a private job doing a clutch/gearbox on one at the side of the road, you really thought you'd cracked it....
Nothing is difficult, you just need to make sure that you do everything right because they are quite tight. I never remove the fan, or the cam cover, or the centre console, or drain the gearbox oil, or the coolant for that matter (just remove the top hose at the rad). The biggest problem on a TC can be the manifold to frontpipe joint.
If you've ever done gearboxes that are really difficult to remove, they're easy by comparison.
It's a very light box, and I never had any problems lifting them out and back in on my own, and even though I'm an old git and out of practice now, I'd still be able to do it.
Back in the day if you got a private job doing a clutch/gearbox on one at the side of the road, you really thought you'd cracked it....
Demetris said:
But if you (or the OP) listen to what I say, then it should be just as easy for you. Think in terms of your bolting the top steady bar bolt into the bottom hole in the engine. I may have done dozens with someone pushing the engine backwards for me, but when I had to do them without help it didn't take me long to realise that that would work, and, as I (and you) found, it does. You get the benefit, without the legwork....
OrganDoctor
New Member
As you mentioned, space might be a consideration,but in my opinion, I'd remove the engine and gearbox rather than struggle beneath the car.
Whatever you do, avoid using an air chisel and cutting up the surrounding metal for access as did the former owner of my TC !!
Whatever you do, avoid using an air chisel and cutting up the surrounding metal for access as did the former owner of my TC !!
I can actually remember doing my one and only 2000TC box removal. It must have been in my late teens and was one of the first things I ever handled on a P6 or any car for that matter.
I was armed with a copy of the HBOL, a tool kit from Mum's club book, and a set of ramps. I do remember it being outside on a gravel drive and it bucketed down with rain during most of it. But I took it out (still remember spinning it to get the starter lump upwards), stripping it down, fitting new bearings, putting it back together, stripping it down again and fitting the bits left in the box, etc.
It was hard work and I lost skin from knuckles, but if an 18 year old novice can do it, then it really isn't that difficult.
I drove the car for years afterwards, and never had another gearbox problem.
Best of luck
Richard
I was armed with a copy of the HBOL, a tool kit from Mum's club book, and a set of ramps. I do remember it being outside on a gravel drive and it bucketed down with rain during most of it. But I took it out (still remember spinning it to get the starter lump upwards), stripping it down, fitting new bearings, putting it back together, stripping it down again and fitting the bits left in the box, etc.
It was hard work and I lost skin from knuckles, but if an 18 year old novice can do it, then it really isn't that difficult.
I drove the car for years afterwards, and never had another gearbox problem.
Best of luck
Richard
Demetris
Well-Known Member
harveyp6 said:
I get your point and i fully agree. We benefit a lot from hard earned advice in this forum. My objection is that when it comes to turn theory into practice, i.e. being under the car trying to lift and align the gearbox at the same time, it takes some finesse (and in our example physical fitness...) to succeed.
Thinking and planning ahead always saves you the legwork. For example a correctly angled craddle securely mounted on a low profile trolley jack could possibly turn this work in a doddle, even for a debutant having to work at the side of the road. But how many of us are inclined to work like this in reality?
Harvey,
The series 2 cars have the long nose water pump. If you don't remove the fan it will end up through the rad. Also in the early cars the gearlever bolts from underneath and the remote is different, on later cars they are secured from the top under the centre console. Ditto the later cam covers there is no way the engine will tilt back enough without removing it.
The series 2 cars have the long nose water pump. If you don't remove the fan it will end up through the rad. Also in the early cars the gearlever bolts from underneath and the remote is different, on later cars they are secured from the top under the centre console. Ditto the later cam covers there is no way the engine will tilt back enough without removing it.
pat180269 said:
Sorry, but I've done hundreds of them, and have never had to do any of things that you have. The fan won't go through the rad if you position the blades correctly, the cam cover can stay in place if you remove the insulation from the heater box, and you can remove the gearlever from the remote from underneath.
Thank you Gentlemen for all the replies! I think I am starting to weigh down on the side of just pulling the whole engine/gearbox together, it might be more straightforward as I will be doing most of it myself. As I previously said my facilities are poor, a garage in our rented house which has no back to it so more of a car port really and nowhere to store anything so that was why I thought it might be just easier to remove the box. I will read over the posts and have a think. I'm afraid the gearbox removal will turn into my 1970 p6 V8 which started out as a water pump replacement and now is minus it's entire rear running gear, interior and roof and is likely to remain like that for years due to time, distance, money etc..
harveyp6 said:
Please explain how you remove the gearlever from below I'm intrigued, the bolts go through from the top. If you mean by dropping the back of the box down to get at the bolts from below then this explains why I have split in my gearshift gaitor where someone has tried poked the gearlever through from below !
I tilted the engine back in my car and the fan hit the rad I then removed it and tilted it back some more. Maybe you can leave it in place but why take the chance it takes two minutes to take it off. I drained the coolant because with the engine tilted back the heater pipes are bent like hell and I'd not long since replaced them. The original poster said he was overhauling the box its therefore easier to drain the oil with the box in place.
All of the above is trivia. The main difficulty is removal and replacement of the box underneath and the requirement on re-fitment to manhandle the box and align everything at the same time. I accept you have done hundreds and can do them in your sleep but we haven't.
pat180269 said:
When you drop the back of the box down you remove the gaiter from the tunnel, (not the one inside the car) and then use a 3/8"dr 1/2"AF deep socket over the top of that to undo the 3 bolts holding the lever housing. If you lift all that off with the 3 bolts still in their holes then you don't get all those bits mixed up either. I'm never surprised at what other people do, hence your split gaiter, and the reason for that happening, just don't make the assumption that everybody does things like that, and that because you can't do things, that other people can't do them either.
My outline of the job above is based on the procedure described in the haynes manual written for amateurs which I read and my own experience of doing the job as an amateur. I have offered it to the original poster to help him decide which way he wants to attack the job. You seem intent on making a big issue out of a few sidesteps which might save a few minutes at best if they go right but cost money if they go wrong. Doing the job quicker is irrelevant for the amateur mechanic. On balance I'd say it would have been easier if i'd removed the engine.
Vern Klukas
Active Member
Though I'm no expert at the series 2 cars, I'm with Harvey on this one. Removing the gearbox alone is easier than pulling engine & gearbox.
If you really want a challenge, try doing a clutch on a V12 Jag XK without pulling the engine & gearbox. Once the shop I worked at figured it out, we charged double our shop rate and still undercut the engine removal approach by about 33%. Easy money!
Yours
Vern
PS: Not trying to pick a fight or anything, I actually wrote in response to a post three or four back now. Things seem to of gotten a bit testy, let's all relax. We've all got the car's best interest's at heart.
If you really want a challenge, try doing a clutch on a V12 Jag XK without pulling the engine & gearbox. Once the shop I worked at figured it out, we charged double our shop rate and still undercut the engine removal approach by about 33%. Easy money!
Yours
Vern
PS: Not trying to pick a fight or anything, I actually wrote in response to a post three or four back now. Things seem to of gotten a bit testy, let's all relax. We've all got the car's best interest's at heart.
pat180269 said:
Forget the Haynes manual, and remember that the original question from the OP was:
Stephen79 said:
And there's only one answer to that, and that's "Yes".
Followed by:
Stephen79 said:
Which seems to me that he would rather avoid taking the engine out if possible. If you want to talk him into that, then carry right on, but that will be his decision to make, and that's fine by me, just don't try to make out that what I'm advising him to do is going to cause him problems, where doing it your way won't.
WarrenL
Active Member
OrganDoctor said:As you mentioned, space might be a consideration,but in my opinion, I'd remove the engine and gearbox rather than struggle beneath the car.
Whatever you do, avoid using an air chisel and cutting up the surrounding metal for access as did the former owner of my TC !!
:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: