ZF 4 HP22 - Gear lever

keanej

keanej

New Member
I have been trying to work out what to use as a gear lever when I install the new gearbox.

My 1st choice would have been a BMW 5 or 7 series from 1985 - 1991 but can't find one anywhere.

Alternatives include the Jag XJ40, but I'm not keen on the J gate and the unit is incredibly deep so I'm not sure there is room between the top of the tunnel and gearbox for it - Has anyone got one fitted ?

I've just been looking at the Saab 9000 unit which looks OK, but this is off a ZF 4 HP18 box so I'm not sure this will work - are the shift movements fairly standard on gearboxes ?

Any advice and guidance welcome
 
I know of one that was installed with the standard cable shifter from a BW65. Apparently it works fine, you just can't quite get it into '1'. The question is, how often do you really need to? I intend on trying this myself but I'm still a few weeks away from that part of the install so I can't say for sure.
 
No problem with the depth of the Jag change lever. I personally quite like its appearance, but it does require heavy revision or remnewal of the transmission tunnel finisher. Note that early cars have a version minus the sport button front left, which is preferable if you are having a cable control box. The variety with the sport button also have a switch arrangement on the outside of the quadrant (ie in the works and hidden from view) which is necessary if you use an electronic version of the box.


Chris
 
Guys, replacing the BW35 was a question I raised over on the Austin Rover Online forum a while ago. The discussion petered out before the details were really sown in place, but the consensus was that the ZF 4HP22 was the box to go for. From what I've just found it seems this might be a previously discussed topic here. Can somebody provide a link to a relevant thread? If not, what are the ins and outs of a conversion?

The BW35 is, in my opinion, the single biggest drawback to using a P6B every day. Even in the bog standard form mine is in, I'm certain that torquey V8 could handle taller gearing for motorway cruising, such as the overdriven top in the 4HP22 would provide.
 
On replacing the gearbox I would not want to put on a different cars shifter on it, it would have to be a standard P6B shifter in my case the BW65 stick and facia, if I couldnt do it with out changing the shifter it would be a stop on replacing the box.

Graeme
 
ghce said:
On replacing the gearbox I would not want to put on a different cars shifter on it, it would have to be a standard P6B shifter in my case the BW65 stick and facia, if I couldnt do it with out changing the shifter it would be a stop on replacing the box.

Graeme
Click to expand...

You can use the standard lever, but you will lose the ability to independantly select First Gear, because the BW65 is six position, but the ZF is 7 position.
 
What is the problem, is it the throw of the lever or the indenting or both? as most things are not insoluable I presume some reengineering of the Standard lever would be possible to get the 7th position?

Graeme
 
I'd like to see this issue resolved. While I love the thought of a 4HP22 hiding beneath the transmission tunnel, I'm not at all keen on anything that alters the original appearance of the car, especially if it can't be reversed. I wouldn't be averse to having a spare gate/shifter subtly modified to suit (could a spare gate be re-"graphicked" to show 7 positions?).

By the same token I'd be prepared to install one of those converters that takes the electric speedo signal from the ZF and outputs a cable drive; but not replace the speedo internals with an SD1 unit (as some have apparently done).
 
Warren, it is reasonably easy to sort out the speedo drive. As you say you could use one of the electronic to cable drive convertors, or Alan at Classeparts can sell you a rear end conversion to use the existing P6 cable, or if you get a box with a cable drive output you could get a cable made up specially to suit the respective ends of the ZF and P6.

I too am very interested indeed in the detail of how to use the existing quadrant to control the ZF.

Chris
 
You could lengthen the bottom of the P6 lever using the adjustment on the bottom to give the extra throw to get the seventh position, then you would need to change the plastic indicator plate to suit, and then, the hardest thing would be making a new seven position detent for the lever itself.

Now that I've written it, it doesn't sound as difficult as I thought it would be...............
 
HarveyP6, I believe you've already got us part-way there! Now with the collective brains available on this forum surely it must be possible to come up with the definitive solution to the challenge. Maybe a 6-stage quadrant that just skips out "N" (who ever uses that anyway???)... :wink:
 
Actually it's "park" I never use! I'm nervous of the possibility of either putting it in park when not stationary or the car being bumped/dragged with it engaged. In any case the notion of deliberately engaging conflicting mechanisms to lock something that's meant to be free offends my engineering sensibilities! Plus I regard it as an anachronysm of lazy Americans who couldn't be bothered to use the handbrake!

Unless you regularely tow a caravan I don't see that losing the "1" position is that much of an issue. Given that, are you sure, Harvey, that the existing throw and detent spacing will suit the ZF? If so then I think this route is a no brainer! Even if a bit of engineering is required as Harvey describes, its not insuperable. Especially if the first victim were to post the dimensions etc of the alterations for us!

Chris
 
Exactly! We need a victim, I mean volunteer. Somebody with a modicum of engineering knowledge and some expendable spare parts on which to practise.

I've always liked to use P as an added security when parking on inclines, but you're quite right Chris. I've known several perfectly healthy transmissions to be ruined by a tap to the car when parked in P. And P would be easier to exclude than N.
 
Actually, I'd be quite happy to forgo first gear in the interest of maintaining the original quadrant with the least possible modifications. I can't recall the last time I ever used "1". And I don't tow with GF148.

But I do see a possibility for somebody cleverer than me to make an acceptable conversion kit and sell them to P6ers. I for one would be very happy to pay money to whosoever could build me the right piece of kit.
 
Hi Warren, as I said before, there is a guy in Christchurch who has done this conversion using a BMW trans with RangeRover bellhousing, flexplate and Converter and I just found the link to his webpage.
http://www.yokiniqu.orconhosting.net.nz ... ersion.htm
I E-mailed him a bunch of questions and the bit about the cable is as follows:

"Any issues with the shift cable? How did you allow for the extra position in the shifter arc? (Does the Beemer have an extra position?)
I used the original shift cable, though I had to reposition the cable to the other side of the transmission tunnel. (to suit the shift lever on the gearbox) I had to make a new hole to support the shift cable in an anchor bracketat the top of the tranmission tunnel. I have kept the cars original shifter, however, you can't select first gear in the gear box. This is not normally a problem since most start-offs in 2-3 or 4 the
gear-box starts in 1st gear anyway. (Actually - I can select first gear. If I pull the shifter all the way back first gear -just- snicks in, whether or not you can do this depends on how you have your cable adjusted. Of course the relationship between 12DNRP and the shift position of the gear box dont exactly line up. I dont think this is actually a problem."
 
Ah yes, now that you've reposted it I remember reading that somewhere on the forum.

The loss of "1" and a little bit of misalignment between the lever and the letters wouldn't bother me. I'd be far more bothered by mutilating the car's interior. And the BMW/RR combination is what I've settled on as my eventual start point. I looked at buying a Sherpa box from the UK and having my Hampshire-domiciled brother send it out to me, but have you seen how much they go for on eBay!!!??? Blimey! I could buy both boxes here (a BMW one and a LR one) for only a few hundred bucks all up, swap the bits around and sell what's left.
 
chrisyork said:
Given that, are you sure, Harvey, that the existing throw and detent spacing will suit the ZF?
Chris
Click to expand...

I wasn't sure at the time of writing that the 6 positions of the BW and ZF boxes would line up, and subsequent postings would seem to show that they don't, but getting them to line up perfectly is simply a matter of using the adjustment on the bottom of the P6 lever, and varying the length of the selector arm on the box until you find the perfect combination.

I would always retain PARK and lose "1" rather than the other way around.
 
Well fellas, after months of thrashing this topic I believe we're getting close to the perfect solution!

Will the first to attempt it please post a detailed photo-diary of the operation?
 
Bingo!

That's startlingly good news!

I've tried accessing the New Zealand guy's site but can only get the pictures. Can you provide a link to the text?

Chris
 
Hi Chris, no text or any kind of explanation on that site I'm afraid. I was given the link via E-mail and most of the details came from those E-mails. First one is this: (his bits are in blue)

I have pictures of the gearbox, the new rear-mount, and the modification of
the BMW donut flange to suit the Rover drive shaft.
The original Rover drive shaft was used, it did not need to be altered in
any way.

The gearbox shown attached to the engine is the 4HP-22, the gearbox sitting
along side is the Borg Warner 3 spd.
The bell-housing is ex-Range Rover.

I will add some written description to the pics to provide more detail.

The issue of the speedometer drive still lingers.
This gearbox came out of an E30 series BMW. BMW take the speedometer driver
from the differential, Landrover - Range Rover from the transfer case.
As it stands, this gearbox does not have a speedometer drive. Currently I'm
using a digital speedometer from a push-bike running of a sensor on the
front wheel. This was adequate for certification and WOF requirements,
however I wish to use the cars original speedometer.
I can either investigate changing the rear of the gear-box to that used on
the Leyland DAF vehicle or making an
electric motor drive to drive the existing mechanical speedometer.

I think the latter option maybe easier as changing the rear of the gear-box
will mean modifying the rear mount and re-certifying and possibly shortening
the drive shaft.

Any questions - please feel free to ask.

I had, so I did! Second E-mails follows:

Hi Quentin, Nick Rogers was good enough to forward your Email on to me. I am in the process of attempting the same conversion you have done. I have a '71 P6B that is (slowly) being converted to USA spec and I have a rebuilt and mildly tweaked motor waiting to go in. I recently aquired a ZF from a Daf ambulance so it already has the right bellhousing for the V8. I haven't bolted it all together yet, just laid it out on the floor. I have a couple of questions...
Did you use the P6 flexplate? No, I used the RR Flexplate, as it is already set up to accept the ZF tourque converter, I used the RR tourque converter as well.Bmw or RR torque converter? and any mods required to fit? No mods, the RR flexplate bolted nicely up to the back of the P6B motor (had to use a spacer, but this was from the RR as well)Flexplate, Spacer, Tourque converter, all from the RR.It looks to me like the RR bellhousing will foul the trans tunnel, any cutting required?
No cutting required, though I did use a soft-face hammer to fold the leading edges of the tranmission tunnel round a little (the join at the front of the trans tunnel and the firewall), this was pretty minor.
This was done more on the side of the transtunnel about in the area of the startmotor pinion housing in the bellhousing.
There is sufficient clearance at the top and the other side of the bell housing.
Any issues with the shift cable? How did you allow for the extra position in the shifter arc? (Does the Beemer have an extra position?)
I used the original shift cable, though I had to reposition the cable to the other side of the transmission tunnel. (to suit the shift lever on the gearbox) I had to make a new hole to support the shift cable in an anchor bracketat the top of the tranmission tunnel. I have kept the cars original shifter, however, you can't select first gear in the gear box. This is not normally a problem since most start-offs in 2-3 or 4 the
gear-box starts in 1st gear anyway. (Actually - I can select first gear. If I pull the shifter all the way back first gear -just- snicks in, whether or not you can do this depends on how you have your cable adjusted. Of course the relationship between 12DNRP and the shift position of the gear box dont exactly line up. I dont think this is actually a problem.
How much of the trans mounts had to be cut from the floor?
One of the orignal Borg Warner mounts has to be mostly (but not totally cut back) to all the ZF to fit in. The end of the ZF is fatter than the old Borg Warner.
Any clearance issues with the exhaust?
mm, not really, though the exhaust is hanging a little lower at the moment than I'd like to see.
Thanks for your help, I will probably have a few different issues as I think the Daf 'box is longer but it does have a speedo drive and a 4 bolt rear flange. Unfortunately it also has the deep sump and a dipstick tube that comes out at the front of the engine so that will have to go. Did the Bmw one fit ok? Some minor tweaking, and the BMW filler tube comes up neatly behing the engine, clearing the heater pipes. Sorry for all these questions but it's great to find that this can be done! I've been putting off a trial fit as the car is till running but i will have to bit the bullet and stuff it in and see what happens!
Thanks again, Al Worsfold (Rover club, Auckland)

Dont worry about the questions, I'm glad to see other people interested in updating the gearbox technology a little.
The car can cruise in top gear now with the engine running at 2200 rpm @ 100km/h Unfortuately, the lockup does not kick in until 115km/h, however, I understand from talking to a
mechanic at an auto shop here in CHCH that by modifying the valve body this lock up speed can be brought down (this is not a big job - apparantely).
Having the lockup kick in will bring the engine speed down to around 2000rpm.
And I left it at that because mine is still not quite fitted yet.
 
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