V8 spins too slowly to start

dmblbit

Active Member
One of my V8s has been laid up with the heads off for approaching 12 years. I have finally got around to putting it back together, but it won't start. Engine spins very slowly. I have swapped the starter motor with the other car - both starters work fine on the runner. So, I now suspect the oil pump isn't delivering. Symptoms include not much evidence of oil at rockers, valves not opening very far possibly due to oil not reaching hydraulic tappets, plus engine generally very very stiff to turn over. So the first questions are:
1. Is there any way to operate the pump without running the engine?
2. Can the oil pump be primed without taking the timing cover off?
Help!
 
dmblbit said:
1. Is there any way to operate the pump without running the engine?
2. Can the oil pump be primed without taking the timing cover off?
Help!

Yes, you can prime the oil pump, but you will need to remove the distributor and then either make or buy a tool to fit into the pump gear shaft that you can then fit to an electric drill to prime the pump.
 
You can pull the dizzy and run the pump with a drill using a proper tool you can buy or by making one with a bit of tube and a hammer/pair of grips :wink:
Watch how you take it out as it's easy to lose your position as it rotates on the way out. Mark dizzy body and rotor arm position :)
 
Regarding the slow starter speed , check earth straps, after a 12 year lay up they could be making a poor contact.
 
Many thanks gents - I'll have a crack at that. I'll check the earth straps too. Does my oil pump diagnosis sound feasible though? Is it possible for it to have emptied itself over that period of time, and would that make the engine stiff to turn?
 
First of all, I am no engineer (as will become apparent), but I actually made a tool out of a piece of 15mm copper pipe drilled with a screw and nut through the end. I crimped the thread to make sure the nut didn't drop off in the timing cover. Also located in plumbing box was 15-10mm reducer and old screwdriver shaft (about 10mm) so that the other end could fit in the drill. Copper is not ideal due to tendency to bend but managed to get it straight enough to engage with the pump drive and spin it. Spin spin spin spin spin etc - no evidence of new oil in rocker area. Remove rocker arm. Spin again, while staring fixedly at little oil hole, which remains alarmingly dry. Battery now flat on drill. Replace with spare. Also flat. Time for a cup of tea. Somewhat later, try again with charged battery - still no oil. Resist temptation to customize engine with sledge hammer, and decide there's nothing for it but to remove the timing cover. I know this will be easier with radiator out, so remove bottom hose to empty. Replace hose quickly and get container to catch coolant. Doh! Empty rad and remove after brief bad language interlude due to forgetting oil pipes from gearbox (I think); fan blades off; alternator off; fan wheel off. Apply 15/16" socket to crank pulley to remove. Won't budge, but previously incredibly stiff engine now seems to move anticlockwise with relative ease. Check book. Aha - need to jam something somewhere. This involves removing cover from front of autobox (I think) which involves laying in pool of 12 year old oil drippings plus larger pool of coolant. Lose nerve and some of will to live, and abandon plan to remove timing cover (for the time being at least) and decide to remove oil pump in situ - Haynes seems to suggest it's possible. Hmmm- what interesting bolt heads. What a marvelous idea to put these little beauties in this inaccessible place. Eventually find spanner that fits, and after much bad language actually manage to remove pump. Well, well, well - it's completely dry in there. Clean everything. Raid medicine cabinet for pot of Vaseline and pack every available space thoroughly. Replace pump (more bad language) using old gasket as no new one available - eeek - will be shunned and scolded by Rover purists. Connect newly charged drill and Heath Robinson attachment to pump drive. Turn drill speed to maximum and go for it. Some strange sucking and gurgling from pump area, followed by rather sudden and spectacular fountain of disgusting black treacle from hole in cylinder head. Bingo - we have oil pressure!! Clean up oily mess from engine bay, front wing, driveway and self. Time for another cup of tea. Decided in light of disgusting state of 12 year old oil exiting hole in cylinder head, to change oil. Sump nut comes undone with a bang resulting in gouge taken out of index finger. More bad language. Marvel at strange molasses product trickling from sump. Replace sump nut. Refill with cheap 15/40 product to flush before refilling later with "proper" oil. Retire for the day to nurse sore finger and wash out potty mouth with soap and water.
 

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She started yesterday with a mighty roar (and a rather alarming huge cloud of smoke from the exhaust). First time for 12 years - at least. She won't run for more than 20 seconds at a time though so I am suspecting fuel starvation, which is next on the list to investigate. Or maybe condenser? Any ideas? Thanks for all the help and suggestions by the way.
 
Well done,..so now you know there is life there.. :D

Ok,...did you drain the tank to start with and fill with new fuel? You could add 500ml of methylated spirits to the tank as this will remove any water that may be lurking there. Changing the fuel filter would be a very good idea too.

Ron.
 
dmblbit said:
First of all, I am no engineer (as will become apparent), but I actually made a tool out of a piece of 15mm copper pipe drilled with a screw and nut through the end. I crimped the thread to make sure the nut didn't drop off in the timing cover. Also located in plumbing box was 15-10mm reducer and old screwdriver shaft (about 10mm) so that the other end could fit in the drill. Copper is not ideal due to tendency to bend but managed to get it straight enough to engage with the pump drive and spin it. Spin spin spin spin spin etc - no evidence of new oil in rocker area. Remove rocker arm. Spin again, while staring fixedly at little oil hole, which remains alarmingly dry. Battery now flat on drill. Replace with spare. Also flat. Time for a cup of tea. Somewhat later, try again with charged battery - still no oil. Resist temptation to customize engine with sledge hammer, and decide there's nothing for it but to remove the timing cover. I know this will be easier with radiator out, so remove bottom hose to empty. Replace hose quickly and get container to catch coolant. Doh! Empty rad and remove after brief bad language interlude due to forgetting oil pipes from gearbox (I think); fan blades off; alternator off; fan wheel off. Apply 15/16" socket to crank pulley to remove. Won't budge, but previously incredibly stiff engine now seems to move anticlockwise with relative ease. Check book. Aha - need to jam something somewhere. This involves removing cover from front of autobox (I think) which involves laying in pool of 12 year old oil drippings plus larger pool of coolant. Lose nerve and some of will to live, and abandon plan to remove timing cover (for the time being at least) and decide to remove oil pump in situ - Haynes seems to suggest it's possible. Hmmm- what interesting bolt heads. What a marvelous idea to put these little beauties in this inaccessible place. Eventually find spanner that fits, and after much bad language actually manage to remove pump. Well, well, well - it's completely dry in there. Clean everything. Raid medicine cabinet for pot of Vaseline and pack every available space thoroughly. Replace pump (more bad language) using old gasket as no new one available - eeek - will be shunned and scolded by Rover purists. Connect newly charged drill and Heath Robinson attachment to pump drive. Turn drill speed to maximum and go for it. Some strange sucking and gurgling from pump area, followed by rather sudden and spectacular fountain of disgusting black treacle from hole in cylinder head. Bingo - we have oil pressure!! Clean up oily mess from engine bay, front wing, driveway and self. Time for another cup of tea. Decided in light of disgusting state of 12 year old oil exiting hole in cylinder head, to change oil. Sump nut comes undone with a bang resulting in gouge taken out of index finger. More bad language. Marvel at strange molasses product trickling from sump. Replace sump nut. Refill with cheap 15/40 product to flush before refilling later with "proper" oil. Retire for the day to nurse sore finger and wash out potty mouth with soap and water.

Well done for getting her going! And whilst you may have a few nicks and bruises, at least your sense of humour remained intact! :D

Keep going...it'll all be worth it!
 
Following advice from Ron (thanks by the way) decided to replace filter, and drain and clean tank. Decided to have a look at sender unit in the process, as fuel gauge not working. Filter replacement was straightforward, so heartened by this put car on ramps, and lay underneath to undo tank connections. Probably should have taken watch off first. All the clothes I was wearing have been washed three times since and now only smell a little of petrol, but the watch can't be washed and stinks. I'm sure there is a way to do this without it running down your arm and into your armpit, but it eluded me. I was not very popular indoors. Connections eventually released, and tank emptied of nearly 18 litres of fuel. The last 6 litres to come out, after removing the reserve connection were a very strange colour (car possibly suffering from some kind of UTI) and were accordingly disposed of in a gravel patch in the garden where we can be sure no weeds will grow for some time to come. The rest of the fuel was mixed a bit at a time in the tank of a Peugeot 107, which seems perfectly happy with the situation. Don't have a special tool to remove the sender unit so decided to remove the tank to make the job easier. Tank came out without trauma. But attempts to engineer "special tool" from tin cans failed miserably. Eventually resorted to pin hammer and centre punch to very gently tap the unit round, and it came out a treat. I'm not recommending this butchery (taught me by my late Dad) but it did get the job done, and nothing was broken either. When sender came out it was obvious why the fuel gauge didn't work - see pictures. It was stuck solid and encrusted with rusty muck. I was pretty certain it would never work again, however to my very great surprise, the three little tabs undid without snapping off, and inside it was in not bad condition. I unstuck it, cleaned it up, put it back together, said a silent prayer to the great Rover in the sky, and connected it up to the wires under the car (tank still out - I didn't want to risk putting the tank back in the car with a dud unit in it). Hey presto! Gauge now works, and with sender dangling beneath car registers a full tank. Reassemble everything without incident. Splash of black Hammerite on exposed bits of metal. She's all back together now, with fresh fuel, but still not running smoothly yet so I'm going to have to look at the carbs next. Still - we're getting there.

Many thanks to all for the excellent advice. Am very much enjoying the project and finding the forum to be a Godsend.

Steve
 

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Just a couple more pictures of the finished article.
 

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Sir, you are a legend!! to turn that moulding peice of crap into a workable part is just magic, hats off to you :D

Graeme
 
Thank you - adulation gratefully accepted. Normally this job would have gone horribly pear shaped when I tried to undo the unit with a hammer and centre punch. So it was rather strange to encounter success at every stage. I seem to have slipped into a parallel universe where I can actually do real stuff without making a pig's knickers of it.

Let's not get too carried away though.

My watch strap still stinks of petrol.
 
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