To rope seal, or not to rope seal, that is the question...

[So Cal V8]

I have an important question to pose to you all regarding the rear main seal.

The engine from my 1970 NADA 3500S has had a great deal of machine work done to it over the last few years - decked, bored, balanced, heads flowed, custom aluminium forged pistons and rings from Venolia, etc. etc.

But, one thing that just never occurred to me was the rear main seal, at least that is, it didn't occur to me until now. I had always assumed that when it came time I could just replace the rope seal with the improved (?) neoprene seal. However, my understanding is that the neoprene seal is not a "direct" replacement and that my block would have to be machined to accept the new seal - I could be wrong though.

To add to my confusion I have just been on the phone with Mark at D&D Fabrications and he has told me that the crank on my engine is designed to work with the rope seal and it's a PITA to get the neoprene seal combo working - not to mention the cost of the machine work. He says his preference is to use the rope seal as when properly installed they are just fine and dandy. His actual explanation was more detailed, but also slightly above my head.

I had sort of set my mind on the neoprene seal - obviously newer so therefore better and less leak prone. My engine builder guy is also more of a neoprene seal fan. So what to do?

The engine is out and in pieces, so absent the cost, it's the perfect time to get the work done. I had a pretty crappy experience with the machine shop - the work is excellent, but the customer service leaves something to be desired. They were given a strict budget and told that was all the work they were to do - they took it upon themselves to do whatever work they wanted and the bill ended up being more than triple the budget. The machine shop in question can be seen on one of the California based episodes of Wheeler Dealers, where lovable cokerney car-salesman Mike is given a tour - I am sure my engine was still gathering dust on the shelf when he went there. Anyway, I digress.

So...

Is the neoprene better than the rope?

Is there a direct replacement that doesn't require machine work?

Is there an issue with the crank/seal inter-workings?

I would hate to pass up the chance to get the neoprene seal if it is, in fact, the way to go. I just am not sure what to do.

Sincerely,

Confused

Answers on a postcard please.

 

[harveyp6]

A lipseal is better than a rope seal. My understanding is that the back of the block and the rear main cap need to be machined as a unit to take the lipseal, but the lipseal runs on a different part of the crank to the rope seal, so the crank remains standard. If that turns out not to be the case you could just fit a later P6 crank, or one from an Sd1.

 

[mrtask]

Have you driven your car with this engine in it since the various jobs you've listed were carried out?
Tell more about the Venolia custom forged alloy pistons! What heads are you using, and what is the flow data on them before and after they were given the treatment? Care to list the etc. etc.?
Surely if the machine shop did more work than your explicit instructions, but without checking with you first, you're not strictly liable? I'd be livid if an agreed price was tripled without my say-so.

 

[clive P62]

I spoke to Real Steel recently and they used to machine quite a few rover engines to lip seal.
Ive got a feeling they machine part of the crank as well, the thrower bit i think .
Am going to get my NADA engine done by them when i strip it.
Clive.

 

[So Cal V8]

Have you driven your car with this engine in it since the various jobs you've listed were carried out?
Tell more about the Venolia custom forged alloy pistons! What heads are you using, and what is the flow data on them before and after they were given the treatment? Care to list the etc. etc.?
Surely if the machine shop did more work than your explicit instructions, but without checking with you first, you're not strictly liable? I'd be livid if an agreed price was tripled without my say-so.

Hi Al,

My engine is a 10.5:1 and I needed oversized pistons - can't remember how many thou at the moment - and I couldn't find pistons in that compression ratio anywhere. I expanded my search to include Buick 215 pistons which ended up with a visit to Egge as they are only up the road. Buick pistons were available and I was reasonably certain that they would fit, but I noticed their ad for custom forged pistons while I was there... that set me to thinking. I had looked at Venolia as an option way back when, but now not being able to get the right compression ratio I started to consider the custom option again. Especially when I compared the price per cylinder to off the shelf Egge Buick parts.

A trip to Venolia in Long Beach with my old piston and it was only a few short minutes before I decided on the custom route - of course they get you on the price by suggesting custom wrist pins and rings. All in all it came to about $1,000 - I know it's double what a set of Egge pistons cost, but ya know, custom an all.

The etc. etc. refers to the fact that the full spec and completed build is a ways off yet, so I haven't driven it The plan is to use hydraulic roller lifters with a custom cam, stainless headers and I am thinking of fuel injection using something like this http://fitechefi.com/default.asp.pg-GoEFI4 Tom (302Rover) currently has this set up in his car so I am waiting for updates from him - this will be mounted on an Edlebrock Performer intake. It will have a zf4hp22 that's had the torque convertor remapped to up the stall speed to 2500 rpm and all coupled to a jag rear end.

Additionally it will have a custom ARB that me and Tom had made locally for a little over $100, and it will have stiffer springs all round - front already installed.

I am using the original heads as it's not easy to get hold of SD1 parts here. I don't have the numbers on the flow data - as you can imagine the relationship with the machine shop was a little frosty at the end.

I ended up negotiating the price down by over 50% in the end. It was work that I would have had done, but some of it would have been done by Joe my builder and it shouldn't have been done without prior approval. But as I say I probably would would have got it done - plus, they had physical control of my engine, so sometimes the rights and wrongs have to be viewed in light of the realities.

I really should do a thread update - but I get a little sad when I realize just how long it's all taking.

I spoke to Real Steel recently and they used to machine quite a few rover engines to lip seal.
Ive got a feeling they machine part of the crank as well, the thrower bit i think .
Am going to get my NADA engine done by them when i strip it.
Clive.

Thanks for the info Clive - I was talking to Joe after I got Harvey's reply - THANKS Harvey! - and he felt there may be a little more involved. So we will have to do some research to find out all that's needed because most likely we are going to be educating the machine shop as to our needs - as you can imagine there probably isn't a lot of call for having Rover engines machined for lip seals here on the left coast.

Anyone with information on all that's required - your input will be gratefully received.

I have also heard tell that there used to be a company that made drop in replacements that didn't need machining - anyone know anything about these?

Cheers All.

Alan

 

[The Rovering Member]

If you did decide to use a rope seal again then the pre-formed Bedford TK seals that were fitted to my P5B twenty five years ago have held back the oil very well.

 

[rockdemon]

I have also heard tell that there used to be a company that made drop in replacements that didn't need machining - anyone know anything about these?

Cheers All.

Alan

iirc it's the front seal that you can replace with a drop in replacement?

 

[clive P62]

The front lip seal which replaces rope seal was originally from a Buick v6 i think.
A friend of mine in the states picked me up a few about 10 years ago.
Most rover parts people seem to have them now.
Clive.

 

[mrtask]

Intriguing engine recipe Alan. Who is going to devise and grind your custom cam? What kind of parameters / components do you have to have decided upon to get the cam optimised for your needs?
If you're going the EFI route, I've got a rare (limited, numbered) set-up off a P38 Range Rover. A small batch of them were fairly extensively modified for the US market by respected American tuner Reeves Callaway. I'm not going to be able to fit it all to my car while I'm living in Germany, 'cos they have very strict rules regarding modifications to vehicles with Historic licence plates. It's real Rover stuff, rather than aftermarket. I could certainly be persuaded to part with it, for the right price (negotiable). Let me know (perhaps by private message) if you'd be interested? Happy to provide lots of photos. I got it off US fleabay some years ago, it is just languishing in my lock-up gathering dust, which is a shame really. Better it gets used to improve one of these cars. I think it would look really good under the bonnet of a P6, and I reckon it'd satisfy in terms of responsive performance. The trumpets in the plenum chamber are shorter, for more torque. The throttle aperture is larger than the standard unit, 72mm if memory serves me correctly. Don't want to sound as if I actually know what I'm talking about, 'cos I'm sure I don't! I just read too much car stuff on the web, like I used to buy too many car magazines in years gone by! LOL!

 

[corazon]

Crower do custom grinds

 

[So Cal V8]

Intriguing engine recipe Alan. Who is going to devise and grind your custom cam? What kind of parameters / components do you have to have decided upon to get the cam optimised for your needs?
If you're going the EFI route, I've got a rare (limited, numbered) set-up off a P38 Range Rover. A small batch of them were fairly extensively modified for the US market by respected American tuner Reeves Callaway. I'm not going to be able to fit it all to my car while I'm living in Germany, 'cos they have very strict rules regarding modifications to vehicles with Historic licence plates. It's real Rover stuff, rather than aftermarket. I could certainly be persuaded to part with it, for the right price (negotiable). Let me know (perhaps by private message) if you'd be interested? Happy to provide lots of photos. I got it off US fleabay some years ago, it is just languishing in my lock-up gathering dust, which is a shame really. Better it gets used to improve one of these cars. I think it would look really good under the bonnet of a P6, and I reckon it'd satisfy in terms of responsive performance. The trumpets in the plenum chamber are shorter, for more torque. The throttle aperture is larger than the standard unit, 72mm if memory serves me correctly. Don't want to sound as if I actually know what I'm talking about, 'cos I'm sure I don't! I just read too much car stuff on the web, like I used to buy too many car magazines in years gone by! LOL!

Hi Al,

I am quite a long way off putting the whole shooting match together, so as time moves on things may change as I learn about new options or get new ideas. Like you, I probably watch too many car shows and/or read too much car stuff and sometimes sound as if I actually might understand the things I say.

I plan on using hydraulic roller lifters with a custom ground cam from T.A. Performance. They are mainly a Buick performance place, but they have stuff for the 215 and Rover V8 and they are pretty helpful. I think some of the stuff you see at other retailers have their origins with TAP, so the cost is a bit better too - as they are based in Arizona and so are local(ish) to me I will also save a ton on shipping, which can sometimes add 15 - 20% (or more) to my costs.

Regarding the performance parameters - I am going to take a step back and let my engine man Joe make those calculations.

I am interested in your efi set up - would you mind sending a couple of pics when you get the time please? I had planned on the fitech efi set up as it really is stupid simple. Plus I have Tom doing the real world testing for me - albeit in a Ford 302 powered Rover - so I can get his honest feedback.

I just now got round to pulling the engine on my parts car and soon it will be off to the great freeway in the sky - I have to salvage a few useful bits and pieces - so far it has provided a boot floor for sdibbers in NJ and I am going to pull some bits for Clive in Hounslow and see what else I can use. Once that's gone it allows me more access to the Wild Rover, so perhaps I can start to make some progress and post an update or two.

I have ordered a bottom end gasket set so me and Joe can take a look at these lipseals. Then we just have to find someone to do the machine work - hopefully without the drama of the last time.

Crower do custom grinds

Hi Jim,

Did you ever get around to fitting the hydraboost to your car? I think I missed it if you posted anything on it. Got any thoughts or feedback on the system?

Thanks all.

Alan

 

[corazon]

Alan, hydroboost is still under construction lol. In a few weeks I should have the billet adapter made to fit it to the original brake master location on the car though..due to my cnc machine arriving tomorrow
So sorry no feedback as yet. The only other jobs are to plumb it in with a cooler etc. By all reports in retrofit applications nearly everyone is more than happy with braking performance.
Once I get it to working tested stage I could sell adapters to bolt in to the stock Rover location if anyone such as yourself is interested?
Keep up the good work
Jim

 

[So Cal V8]

Alan, hydroboost is still under construction lol. In a few weeks I should have the billet adapter made to fit it to the original brake master location on the car though..due to my cnc machine arriving tomorrow
So sorry no feedback as yet. The only other jobs are to plumb it in with a cooler etc. By all reports in retrofit applications nearly everyone is more than happy with braking performance.
Once I get it to working tested stage I could sell adapters to bolt in to the stock Rover location if anyone such as yourself is interested?
Keep up the good work
Jim

Hey Jim,
I read your update after I posted and the first thing I thought was that you could make and sell the adapters! At the moment the plan is to rebuild my stock brake system, but I have concerns. I don't know how the new cam set up will affect vacuum and therefore braking - and there are a few stories out there about the niggles that come with the NADA dual line system. So I will definitely be watching your progress - on the whole car, not just the hydroboost - with interest. As you are so much further ahead of me I am looking forward to the improvements and feedback.
Cheers,
Alan

 

[mrtask]

Hi Alan
Here are the photos I provided for the excellent online archive of Rover V8 induction manifolds at mez dot co dot uk, compiled by a chap who used to be active on the v8 owners forum.

I was thinking about having the Land Rover oval logo and the 4.6 nomenclature milled off, leaving a large square with rounded corners. It would be easy enough to get a plaque made up with the displacement of the engine it would be fitted to, and/or a Rover longship emblem instead of the Landy logo.
The whole plenum chamber, even the intake manifold itself, could be polished or powder coated.
The set-up includes the fuel rail (IIRC) but no injectors, wiring loom or ECU, or air flow meter. Basically what's pictured. Other forum members have had success with Megasquirt. My mate had a Mark Adams chip put in his 3.9 EFi short wheelbase Landy and she now picks up her skirts like a sports car, whilst idling super smoothly at around 600rpm.
I bet Callaway would have the info regarding the maps they programmed into the ECUs that managed the engines in the low volume run of P38 Range Rovers that they made these for...
Hey, would your scrapper car be able to provide me with two good sun visors? Is it also a NADA? I'm after the 'V'-shaped rain deflector that fits in the long central bonnet scoop of the NADA 3500S.

 

[So Cal V8]

Cheers for the pics Al. I am on the fence about this as the option I was going for is a simple plug and play - no need for all the extras needed. Still, I have changed my mind in the past So if you have an offer on them maybe give me a crack at first refusal? Or, whack it on your motor? You know you want to...

As for the rain deflectors (I had no idea that's what they were for) - good news/bad news.... bad news is that I need them for my car and the scrapper didn't have a usable set; bad news, I haven't been able to find them anywhere... However, on the good news front I am working with another forum member to get some made - at least I will be when I pull my finger out of my jacksie. So, I'll keep you up to date on the new ones.

On another front I am still running into some problems with the lipseal issue. I have decided that I am going to get the machining done - I appreciate the fact that some folks have replaced the rope seal and have had great success - however, it is also very true that lots of people have leaks, drips, weeps - whatever you want to call it. And, the lipseal was an improvement on the ropeseal - so that's my goal. The problem is that I don't have any data for the machine shop.

I think we are going to go back to the same machine shop that all the original work was done at as they apparently have "experience" with Rover V8s. As you can imagine most of the local market revolves around the big-block-ford-small-block-chevy-no-replacement-for-displacement school of thought and there just aren't many people that have much experience with the Rover. If I had access to a lipseal engine that was torn down we could get all the specs we need, but they are a little thin on the ground.

So if anyone has the specs that I can provide to the machine shop I would be grateful.

 

[mrtask]

Maybe talk to the guys at The Wedge Shop, who build badass Triumph TR8s over your side of the Atlantic? They know the Rover V8.

 

[So Cal V8]

Maybe talk to the guys at The Wedge Shop, who build badass Triumph TR8s over your side of the Atlantic? They know the Rover V8.

One of the places that have not responded to my enquiry... I still have a few options though. It may just be better to let Joe make a few calls as they may be more inclined to talk one shop to another.