Hill Hold

SydneyRoverP6B

SydneyRoverP6B

Well-Known Member
Staff member
When I was a boy, my father had a Humber Super Snipe series 3, which I can recall him saying was equipped with the above. My recollection was that if the car was in traffic on a steep hill, you could move the column mounted gear selector into second, and this would prevent the car from rolling backwards without having to use the brake. I should point out that I would have been no more than 14 at the time and most likely quite a bit younger.

When I was learning to drive in 1985 I am sure that I recall the Rover being equipped with the same. If the car was on a steep hill, talking your foot off the brake would see it start to move backwards, then selecting second would lock the car from further movement, just as if you had applied the brake. When the transmission was rebuilt in 1987, this feaure disappeared. I appreciate that an engine which idles too slowly will slip backwards on a hill, but I don't recall an excessive engine speed being necessary to initiate hill hold.

Was there such a feature as hill hold?

Ron.

P.S : With the 4.6, the car will hold on hills at idle in drive without having to use the brake whereas with the original 3.5 on the same road I would need to else post 1987 it would slide backwards.
 
SydneyRoverP6B said:
Was there such a feature as hill hold?
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Yes and it worked as you said by selecting "2". When you want to pull away you can either do it in "2" (which is a bit pointless as you're doing an uphill start in SECOND) or knock the lever into "D" or "1".

If you've not got it it would seem that the transmission company that rebuilt your box didn't do as good a job as they should have done then.
As far as BW35 boxes were concerned Rover were the only boxes that had the feature IIRC. (Although as there are over 200 series types there could possibly be others that have it.)
 
Thanks Harvey... :) I am pleased to know that I paid attention to my father and didn't imagine it. Thanks for confirming that my Rover originally had it too. The loss of that feature wasn't the only thing that I found disappointing about that rebuilt back in 1987.

What would have been omitted that saw that feature lost?

Ron.
 
SydneyRoverP6B said:
What would have been omitted that saw that feature lost?
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Before I get to that I'd like a bit more info about that box. If you were to pull away from a standstill with the lever in "2", did the car pull away in SECOND, or pull away in FIRST, then change into SECOND, but then not select TOP, only shunt between 1-2 2-1?
 
Hmmm, I can't be certain but I think it stayed in second and for that reason I shifted it back into drive before moving off.

Ron.
 
If that's the case I'm a bit surprised, because AFAIR it's the Range Control Valve that gives the second speed start facility. When you select "2" you have the front clutch and the front band engaged, and at that point the UDC won't allow the car to roll backwards because in effect you have 3 things working at the same time. My guess is your box at the time didn't have an RCV fitted, and had something else in its place.

All the above applies to the PRND21 selector pattern, Rover being the only box with that pattern to have the anti roll back, because they chose to keep it by having a Range Control Valve. All PRND2D1L boxes had it, and if the Humber you remember was a BW35 that's why it had it too, D2 being SECOND gear start, so moving the selector from D1 (fully auto) to D2 would stop the car rolling backwards as you remember. Once the selector pattern changed it was only Rover that wanted to keep that function, on all other boxes it was lost. HTH.
 
When I was taken for a test drive in a new P6b in 1972 ,the car dealer was eager to show off the " hill hold " benefit of the Rover box. A great selling point at that time.
After buying my new P6 and owning her for a year I noticed that if the engine revs werent set correctly and the car out of tune ,the " hill hold " function wasnt there and the car rolled back on a hill
 
GRTV8 said:
After buying my new P6 and owning her for a year I noticed that if the engine revs werent set correctly and the car out of tune ,the " hill hold " function wasnt there and the car rolled back on a hill
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It can't do that regardless of engine speed or tuning. For that to happen either the engine would have to stall, or either the front clutch or front band would have to be slipping, and you would notice that in normal driving.
 
harveyp6 wrote,...
If that's the case I'm a bit surprised, because AFAIR it's the Range Control Valve that gives the second speed start facility. When you select "2" you have the front clutch and the front band engaged, and at that point the UDC won't allow the car to roll backwards because in effect you have 3 things working at the same time. My guess is your box at the time didn't have an RCV fitted, and had something else in its place.

All the above applies to the PRND21 selector pattern, Rover being the only box with that pattern to have the anti roll back, because they chose to keep it by having a Range Control Valve. All PRND2D1L boxes had it, and if the Humber you remember was a BW35 that's why it had it too, D2 being SECOND gear start, so moving the selector from D1 (fully auto) to D2 would stop the car rolling backwards as you remember. Once the selector pattern changed it was only Rover that wanted to keep that function, on all other boxes it was lost. HTH.
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Thanks for that Harvey. At the time everything was new to me, and the hill hold feature was lost only two years later, so it may well have followed the pattern you indicated further above, I just can't be certain.
The Humber did indeed have the BW35 box, that was a wonderful car. With the Rover, I remember being on a hill with the selector in drive, foot off the brake and she started to slide backwards, selecting SECOND stopped all movement immediately, and as you said engine revs didn't come into it.

I wonder if anyone on the forum who has a Rover 3500 today with the BW35 still has that feature operational?

Ron.
 
I have a d1d2 box in pae. i'll give it a try when i get a chance. i think in D2 it does hold on hills but i'll clarify exact behaviour when i next have a drive ( either tomorrow or thursday :) )

Rich
 
The problem is that as the newest of the 35 boxes are over 35 years old, and the oldest about 10 years older than that, most of them have had attention at some time, and that often ends up with them being fitted with parts that means the box doesn't work as it should as far as Rovers are concerned. In this particular case though it's a relatively easy fix if you want to reinstate it, as is uprating to the later PRND21 selector pattern from PRND2D1L.
 
Hi Harvey,

What actually has to be done in order to reinstate it? My box was rebuilt as an M51 in 2009, so everything has been uprated except for the Rover valve body which was retained and where I presume the necessary part needs to go?

Funny that Rover didn't mention hill hold in the workshop manual.

Ron.
 
I think the hill hold feature was not unique to Rover alone and recall some where from the dark recesses of my memory that some 1930 cars also had similar features??? maybe i should google that.

Graeme
 
ghce said:
I think the hill hold feature was not unique to Rover alone and recall some where from the dark recesses of my memory that some 1930 cars also had similar features??? maybe i should google that.

Graeme
Click to expand...

Wasn't that a wooden wedge that trailed just behind the rear wheels? :mrgreen:

There's a few look :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hill-holder

Not sure I like this one, prefer to do such things myself :roll:

http://www.bosch-escential.com/us/langu ... ntrol.html

Seems it one of those reborn ideas :wink:
 
Yep that stirred a few old grey cells, it was a park brake release using the clutch, had it on one of our family cars many many eons ago.

Graeme
 
Hill hold on a manual is just laziness, or poor clutch control. Mind you I'd rather be behind the car on a hill that has such a system than doesn't.

Dave
 
SydneyRoverP6B said:
What actually has to be done in order to reinstate it? My box was rebuilt as an M51 in 2009, so everything has been uprated except for the Rover valve body which was retained and where I presume the necessary part needs to go?

Funny that Rover didn't mention hill hold in the workshop manual.
Click to expand...

It is mentioned in the manual, but only in the PRND2D1L section, presumably because most of that was lifted straight from BW, and it was only Rover that wanted it with the later selector pattern, but they just didn't bother to mention it.

If you have a PRND21 box, and "2" is SECOND gear ONLY (not 1-2, 2-1) then you will have the anti roll back. If not it's a separate valve and fluid supply that is fitted to the top of the valve block.
 
harveyp6 wrote,...
It is mentioned in the manual, but only in the PRND2D1L section, presumably because most of that was lifted straight from BW, and it was only Rover that wanted it with the later selector pattern, but they just didn't bother to mention it.
Click to expand...

That would explain why I had not noticed it, thanks Harvey.. :)

Next time I have the box overhauled I'll mention it and see what happens.

Ron.
 
well pae hill holds where it says D1 and then pulls off in second. I' think that despite having a d1d2 selector i actually have a 12d box...??

what are d1 and d2 actually meant to mean? full auto on mine is at d2...

Rich
 
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