Gear whine 1st, 2nd and 3rd

P

pat180269

Active Member
I have gear whine in 1st, 2nd and 3rd on my '74 2200TC. The noise goes away in top, its not bad but its annoying because to me it's at odds with a rover, am I wrong in this assumption?

I am going to drain and refill with 20W50 oil. But assuming this doesn't cure the problem ( which I suspect it won't ), is it repairable and are parts available?

One other point...

My car was registered in Dec '74 yet it has a very short gear-shift.

Does this point to an earlier box being fitted?

The indicated mileage is 60Kish which I have no reason to doubt judging by the general condition both mechanically and structurally and the past MOT's I have.

Given this mileage would you really expect these problems with the gearbox ?

Pat
 
My 72 TC also makes a bit of a whine in 1st, 2nd and 3rd. It goes away in 4th because the gearbox is direct top. There are only 3 sets of gears on the layshaft as 4th is direct - ie, the input shafts locks to the output giving 1:1 gearing. As such, the layshaft (whilst still turning) doesn't have any load through it in top. I've therefore come to the conclusion that the 'whooooo' noise on the overrun in 1,2,3 is the layshaft bearings.

The bearings went through a number of changes, from plain to various roller types, during the early years of production but seem to have settled down by about 67. It's possible your gearbox could be an earlier unit with the associated layshaft worries. On early cars, the remote was bolted to the trans tunnel and the selector shaft was in mid air reaching to the selector system. Later cars had a cast alloy remote housing with a series of neoprene bushes to hold the shaft. The the gear lever is positioned below the hole in the trans tunnel (but not bolted to it) and sealed with a big rubber grommet. I don't think you could get a later remote on an early box, and I don't think you could bolt an early lever carrier to the big hole in your trans tunnel, so it's unlikely you'll have an early box. Anyone agree?
The length of the gear lever is incidental, as they can be swapped from car to car.

That said, mine whoooooo's a bit anyway, so I don't think it's anything to be too worried about unless it's badly waaaahhhh-ing. An oil change can't hurt - especially for the clutch release. But I do agree it's at odds with the general aura of the car.

Michael
 
Most probably layshaft bearings, but the actual noise that you hear on the move does not stem from the bearings themselves, but from the gears. Worn bearings allow the layshaft to "drop" therefore the laygears don't mesh with the mainshaft gears at the optimum position, hence the noise. The noise dissapears on top gear for the reasons Michael mentioned above. However you could hear the worn bearings rumble with the car stationary idling on neutral. If you press the clutch the rumble should go away. It won't go bang suddenly, at least if you treat it properly, but it will still deteriorate slowly. Even though you may be able to put up with the noise, driving the car like this results on badly worn gearsets, so you are actually making things worse.
If you decide on a rebuild expect to find other things worn out in there too. Thankfully all is available at a reasonable cost, with the exception of the rear mainshaft bearing that is going to hurt.
Gearlevers are interchangeable and you have to look underneath to find what you really have.
I bought my TC with about 95K Kms or 195K Kms and a noisy gearbox as well. Since the rebuilt i have covered over 100K Kms (62K miles) and it is still nice and quiet.
 
Thanks guys.

Demetris, did you rebuild the box or replace ? If you re-built it what did you replace ? What sort of cost is involved and are any special tools required ?

Cheers

pat
 
Hi Pat, i rebuilt it at home, no special tools required, just a dial gauge indicator apart from the usual sockets, circlip pliers and drifts.
However, you must follow to the letter the factory manual in order to adjust tolerances etc.
I replaced all the bearings with new, with the exception of the rear mainshaft that wasn't available back then (around £100 now from Wadhams IIRC).
I also managed to source a set of new synchro rings, laygear and reverse gear shaft.
I would suggest to open up the gearbox first and replace what is needed with either new or good used. I cannot really comment on actual costs now, as this was some 4 years ago, and the bearings were sourced locally, but i don't think that you should expect anything below £200 for parts alone (obviously without the rear mainshaft bearing)if you go for new decent quality bearings.
 
Demetris thanks.

The gear lever linkage is rattling so there is some work to do there. I might pull the box out and refurb over the winter because its one of those things that's going to continue to annoy me. Fitting a replacement box is a lottery and involves the same work.

So onto the next question...

Engine and box out or just the box. What are the pros and cons ?

I've replaced clutches on RWD cars before by taking just the box out ( marina, Mk2 escort etc ) is it a similar job ( Front wheels on ramps and rear on axle stands) ?
 
pat180269 said:
The gear lever linkage is rattling so there is some work to do there.
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If you have the series 2 selector system (which is most likely), the plastic bushes in the remote housing casting tend to slip out when they are worn so you end up with a load of sideways slop in the gear lever (particularly on 3rd/4th throw). If they are missing altogether, it's possible the selector shaft may be contacting the alloy housing and transmitting vibrations that way, thus accentuating how bad the gearbox sounds/feels. A new set of bushes might make a marked difference to the feel, but it sounds like you're ready to drop it anyway.

I'd be tempted to remove the front engine tie bar and rocker cover (to clear the heater) and tip the whole thing backwards till the box dropped out the trans tunnel. The main engine supports have a big fat rubber bush in them and should easily take the strain. I don't like to remove big parts that don't need work on them if I can avoid it.... I rebuilt my whole engine, including new side plates AND overhauled the heater box without taking the engine block out of the car! :D

Michael
 
Hi Michael

Any idea how high you need the car to get the box out this way, presumably the size of the bell housing plus a bit !
 
pat180269 said:
Engine and box out or just the box. What are the pros and cons ?

I've replaced clutches on RWD cars before by taking just the box out ( marina, Mk2 escort etc ) is it a similar job ( Front wheels on ramps and rear on axle stands) ?
Click to expand...

I have actually done it this way and ... i would try to avoid doing it again.
There are certain tricks that are essential not just helpful (tilting the engine back as far as it will go, rotating the gearbox to bring the starter hump up to clear the tunnel...) but it was a struggle. More so when you try to refit the gearbox. I ended up laid under the car, hugging the gearbox in my arms, trying to lift it, align it, avoid the tunnel, all at the same time, a nightmare as due to the angle of the engine / gearbox the jack couldn't help.
With the car in a 2 / 4 post and one or more assistants available it is going to be much more easier.
Also if you have access to an engine hoist but not a car lifter, take the engine out as well. After all you would have already removed the propshaft and exhaust and it is just a matter to remove the bonnet and undo the engine mountings to take both out. There is just no comparison and if you see it as a winter project you could detail the engine / bay as well.
 
pat180269 said:
Hi Michael

Any idea how high you need the car to get the box out this way, presumably the size of the bell housing plus a bit !
Click to expand...

Hi Pat,

I haven't done it yet, but I don't think you'd have to get it that high. 10 inch wheel ramps maybe? There isn't enough space as things stand, but if you drop the sump off the engine (you're taking 2 bolts out anyway, so why not remove the other 16?!) you can effectively increase the 'head room' under the engine bay by 9 inches or so. The only other obstruction is the front crossmember, but as that is ahead of the front wheels and much further from the pivot point (back axle), the head room will be greater than at the back of the engine. So as long as you can get it past the engine rear plate, you can get it out.

I'm sure it would be possible, but reading Demetris' description, I might want to rethink things. I did the brakes and engine bottom end on my back, but they are at either end of the car - the g'box is in the middle!

Michael
 
I'd always just remove the box, and there's plenty of room to do them with the front of the car on ramps and the rear on stands. The noise in first second and third could be the layshaft bearings, but as they are totally immersed in oil all the time (or should be) then they rarely get very noisy, it's normally the input (first motion) shaft bearing as the helical gears introduce a side loading on that bearing when the drive goes through the layshaft, but either way, to know for certain the box needs to be removed, dismantled and inspected.
 
My 2200SC whines in the lower gears too. Is this something I should worry about or can it wait until other work requiring removal of the engine or gearbox is required? HBoL advises against removal of the box from underneath the car.
 
suffolkpete said:
HBoL advises against removal of the box from underneath the car.
Click to expand...

Another good reason to do it that way then :D

I've removed a V8's gearbox from under the car whilst parked on the street but that doesn't require any rotation of the box to clear the starter hump etc. Harvey will also argue that the gearbox removal was also completely un-necessary as I was only replacing the selector finger and bushes :wink:

Unless you suspect the gearbox is going to fail or you fancy a gearbox rebuild just for the fun of it I wouldn't worry too much about gearbox whine. I certainly wouldn't be removing it just for that :D but then I use my car every day.

Dave
 
Dave3066 said:
Harvey will also argue that the gearbox removal was also completely un-necessary as I was only replacing the selector finger and bushes :wink:
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True, but wasn't your box all shiny and clean when it went back in.
 
harveyp6 said:
Dave3066 said:
Harvey will also argue that the gearbox removal was also completely un-necessary as I was only replacing the selector finger and bushes :wink:
Click to expand...

True, but wasn't your box all shiny and clean when it went back in.
Click to expand...

It was indeed :D so well worth the effort.

Dave
 
I changed the gearbox oil today. Drained about 850ml out and filled with 1 litre as per manual and was level with fill hole. So it might have been a little low but not much. When I cleaned the sump plug something fell out which I assumed would be a magnet but ended up being a chunk of a gear tooth approx 1/8". Is this most likely to be off the synchro drive dog ? The gearbox ( apart from the whine and the linkage slop ) changes fine. Is there any cause for concern ?
 
pat180269 said:
When I cleaned the sump plug something fell out which I assumed would be a magnet but ended up being a chunk of a gear tooth approx 1/8". Is this most likely to be off the synchro drive dog ?
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Most probably from the synchro hub. A pic should be enough to identify its origins, but if it is that it won't do any harm, if it was a tooth from a gear I think you'd know all about it by now.
 
Same thing happened to me years ago . I would normally have panicked but I thought that it seemed to work OK with the bit of metal lying at the bottom of the box before it fell out
 
harveyp6 said:
The noise in first second and third could be the layshaft bearings, but as they are totally immersed in oil all the time (or should be) then they rarely get very noisy, it's normally the input (first motion) shaft bearing as the helical gears introduce a side loading on that bearing when the drive goes through the layshaft, but either way, to know for certain the box needs to be removed, dismantled and inspected.
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Just an update on this for those with similar problems.

The gearbox is out and harvey your diagnosis is absolutely spot on! HARVEY WE ARE NOT WORTHY!!!

You can move the input shaft side to side. Also I drained most of the oil out before I removed the box, when I got it out I turned the box on end to make more room in the garage. The remaining oil came out via the input shaft; presumably the worn bearing has caused oil seal failure.

Anyway I managed to get another box, refurbished the linkage and have a new clutch to go in.

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=13354&start=38
 
pat180269 said:
The gearbox is out and harvey your diagnosis is absolutely spot on! HARVEY WE ARE NOT WORTHY!!!
Click to expand...

I aim to please.

pat180269 said:
You can move the input shaft side to side. Also I drained most of the oil out before I removed the box, when I got it out I turned the box on end to make more room in the garage. The remaining oil came out via the input shaft; presumably the worn bearing has caused oil seal failure.
Click to expand...

Any box would leak like that as they haven't got a seal in the front. There's a scroll on the input shaft, and a shim on the front of the bearing, but that's it, so it's fine in use, but tipped on its end the oil just creeps out.
 
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