Ethanol in petrol?

D

DAV8

Member
Hi All, I think perhaps this has been discussed before but I wondered if any has any up to date info on the question of ethanol in petrol.
I have recentlty read on the internet (The TR register - dated Feb 2011) about the dangers of using petrol that has ethanol added, it does seem that the goverment are not too interested in classic cars and the petrol companies are not obliged to state what is what at the pump. For the record the TR register states the following
BP - Ethanol is added at 5% to unleaded petrol at all sites across the UK, BP ultimate (super unleaded) does not have ethanol added except in the SW of England.
Esso_ Ethanol is added at 5% to unleaded petrol at most sites in the UK, Esso super unleaded does not contain ethanol except in the SW of England
Shell - Shell has repeatedly refused to answer the question, it is therefore an assumption only that all Shell petrol should be considered to contain 5% ethanol.
Texaco - Ethanol is added at 5% to unleaded petrol , Texaco super unleaded does not contain ethanol.
Total - ethanol is not added to any Toatl fuel including standard unleaded except in the NW and SE of England, as I say, this info dates from Feb 2011 and I wondered if anybody has any current details on which petrol companies are selling "Ethanol free petrol"
Thanks in advance
DAV8
Dave
 
DAV8 said:
Hi All, I think perhaps this has been discussed before but I wondered if any has any up to date info on the question of ethanol in petrol.
I have recentlty read on the internet (The TR register - dated Feb 2011) about the dangers of using petrol that has ethanol added, it does seem that the goverment are not too interested in classic cars and the petrol companies are not obliged to state what is what at the pump. For the record the TR register states the following
BP - Ethanol is added at 5% to unleaded petrol at all sites across the UK, BP ultimate (super unleaded) does not have ethanol added except in the SW of England.
Esso_ Ethanol is added at 5% to unleaded petrol at most sites in the UK, Esso super unleaded does not contain ethanol except in the SW of England
Shell - Shell has repeatedly refused to answer the question, it is therefore an assumption only that all Shell petrol should be considered to contain 5% ethanol.
Texaco - Ethanol is added at 5% to unleaded petrol , Texaco super unleaded does not contain ethanol.
Total - ethanol is not added to any Toatl fuel including standard unleaded except in the NW and SE of England, as I say, this info dates from Feb 2011 and I wondered if anybody has any current details on which petrol companies are selling "Ethanol free petrol"
Thanks in advance
DAV8
Dave
Click to expand...

I know its not a V8 , but I won't use ethanol based fuel in my Stihl chainsaws . Buggers them quicker than an out of control bull after sitting on a wasp nest.
Yes I won't use "That" fuel in my P6b either.
 
It's difficult to know. Last i knew from the club was that super is generally ethanol free, but 95ron is universally 5% ethanol. Sounds like that advice may have been partially correct.
 
fwiw sleipnir definitely runs best on momentum 99 from tesco. It spits and misfires on shell 99 and other super unleadeds are generally ok (sainsburys and esso definitely)
 
Here in New Jersey they have to add it and they have to mark the pumps. Its at about 10% now days in all fuels. enough that it lowers the boiling point. When I swapped to HIF6 carbs last year I had really problems with boiling float chambers causing the fuel to spit out over the exhaust (2000TC). I fixed it in the end by adding extra insulation material to the heat shield. I had rebuilt the carbs with Viton rubber seals and replaced the o-ring in the reserve tap with a Viton one too as I know its the rubber that swells with the new stuff.

Things I've heard of with Ethanol include the fact it loves to soak up water. Left inside a tank it will promote rust. It does age quickly. I've heard of fuel going bad in under 6 months, the car will run, but roughly at first. There's some talk that it varnishes quicker than regular fuel too.

I wouldn't mind, but the only reason its added it because of massive subsidies over here for [sweet] corn farming. Environmentally its a none starter as it uses more energy to produce that it replaces. that and the fact that corn is a terrible crop for soil health (I've listened to too many episodes of The Archers!).
 
Hi, The water in the fuel is apparently fairly easy to deal with, by adding methylated spirits it soaks up the water and then gets burnt with the fuel. The fuel hose to use genuine SAE J30 R9 spec, there is quite a lot of copy stuff about so beware of cheap stuff.

Colin
 
Simplest solution is to use an ethanol protection additive when you fill up. I use Millers VSPe. It also adds lead and gives an octane boost. Don't buy the single bottles which work out expensive (about £8 for a full tank). Get the multi-shot bottles which treat 500 litres. To add it will cost you about £2.50 every time you fill your tank to the top.
 
Those of us who are of a certain age will remember Cleveland Discol petrol, which contained 10% alcohol. (Discol was short for DIStillers COmpany Ltd, who supplied the alcohol.) It was on sale from pre-war days up to about 1969. The Cleveland brand disappeared completely in 1973 after Esso took over the company. I used this extensively back in the day as a lot of the garages in my home town sold it, and don't recollect having any problems then. One explanation I heard was that the modern stuff has a different specific gravity, which makes the carburettor float sit at a different height, not a problem of course with fuel injection. I'm not wholly convinced about this though. Any thoughts?
 
Just to advise, be careful of the SAE J30 R9 hose - it may well resist modern fuel, but doesn't seem to stand up to heat very well. The stuff fitted on my Landrover had badly cracked in the engine bay after two or three years. All the pipework away from heat was however totally as new.
 
Hi All, thanks for all your replies. Colin, as far as I am aware there is no requirement for the petrol companies to say what is what at the pumps, I shall be having a good look next fill up, it seems the best way is to stick with the super unleaded.
DAV8
Dave
 
suffolkpete said:
Those of us who are of a certain age will remember Cleveland Discol petrol, which contained 10% alcohol. (Discol was short for DIStillers COmpany Ltd, who supplied the alcohol.) It was on sale from pre-war days up to about 1969. The Cleveland brand disappeared completely in 1973 after Esso took over the company. I used this extensively back in the day as a lot of the garages in my home town sold it, and don't recollect having any problems then. One explanation I heard was that the modern stuff has a different specific gravity, which makes the carburettor float sit at a different height, not a problem of course with fuel injection. I'm not wholly convinced about this though. Any thoughts?
Click to expand...

Never heard of the higher SG aspect but I guess it sounds plausible that the float levels may be different and have a flow on (pun) affect.

I don't think Ethanol is wholly responsible to the effect of swollen and degraded rubbers though it sure does do that too. My understanding is that other compounds need to be added if ethanol is used and that higher proportions of benzine and toluene are used which contribute to the destruction of the rubber
 
Okay, called at my local BP garage today, had a good look at the pumps and I could see nothing relating to ethanol, only the octane number (97 in the case of super unleaded) so I asked the lady at the till, she looked at me as though I had just landed from another planet! enough said stay with the super unleaded stuff.
DAV8
Dave
 
DAV8 said:
... so I asked the lady at the till, she looked at me as though I had just landed from another planet! ...
Click to expand...

I wouldn't really expect anything less. :p
Ladies at the till are not supposed to answer such questions.
 
In most of the U.S. the only information you can get is a sticker on the pump that says "may contain up to 10% ethanol"... and its been that way for at least 20 years.... Leaded fuel has been totally extinct since 1991 or so......
 
I found this during a rummage around the interweb...
List: E10 Engine Damage & Performance Issues.

Listed below are examples of problems and inconvenience that may occur from ethanol (alcohol) and contaminated E10 gas.

IMPORTANT: Most newer engines can run safely on E10 blends when gas is fresh and of high quality. Some engines are not designed for use of gasahol, and even following all precautions will cause damage. (Check your owner's manual for fuel recommendations).

However, E10 damage is most often due to gasoline "contamination", and would not have occurred had the E10 fuel met all ASTM quality standards.

E10 Contamination includes:

Gas at time of purchase contained over 10% legal limit for alcohol, excess water and/or tank not properly cleaned and dry prior to switch to E10.

Ethanol is a strong solvent and cleanser, and while small amounts will keep your engine clean, excess alcohol will wear down engine parts.

Ethanol's water-absorbing qualities are most problematic, but can be managed when fuel is stored properly and replaced often.

Ethanol Gasoline - General Problems/Issues:

1. Water Absorption!

Water Contamination (W/C) and Phase Separation (P/S) of gasoline;

Ethanol attracts, absorbs and holds moisture in fuel tank with increased occurrence of lean, water-diluted fuel.

2. Vapor lock or fuel starvation- Most common in carbureted engines, hot weather and/or at high altitude. (Ethanol increases gasoline's vapor pressure).

3. Drop in octane (after water absorption, P/S and W/C occurs).

4. Decreased fuel efficiency and mpg due to lower energy.

E10 Reformulated Gasoline = 111,836 BTU/gallon. Non-ethanol Gasoline = 114,000 BTU/Gallon. (Diesel and Kerosene Jet Fuel have about 129,000 BTU/gal).

5. Decreased life cycle of parts and engine.

6. Decreased shelf life of gasoline.

Engine/Parts Damage:

1. Wear and damage of internal engine parts.

2. Damage to metal, rubber, and plastic parts of fuel system.

3. Corrosion of metal parts in fuel system and engine.

4. Deterioration of elastomers and plastic parts.

5. Deterioration of non-metallic materials.

6. Fuel permeation through flexible fuel lines.

7. Drying, softening, stretching and/or cracking of rubber hoses,

seals and other rubber components.

8. Oxygen sensor damage.

9. Damage or premature disintegration of fuel pump.

10. Carburetor damage, including clogging.

11. Dirty and clogged fuel filters.

12. Clogging and plugging of fuel injectors.

13. Destruction of certain fiberglass fuel tanks.

14. Removal or fading of paint and varnish (both internal and external parts of engine).

15. Piston/bore failure through knock/pre-ignition.

16. Piston ring sticking.

17. Unsuitable ignition timing resulting in ignition failure.

18. Gumming-up of fuel injectors, carburetors, etc. due to release of accumulated deposits in engine from ethanol alcohol's solvent properties.

E10 Drivability Issues:

1. Engine performance problems, often simply due to lower energy of ethanol-blends.

2. Hard starting and operating difficulty.

3. Hesitation and lack of acceleration.

4. Stalling, especially at low speeds.
 
It is because there's an ill thought through idea that because it's grown and therefore renewable, but this takes no account of the loss of biodiversity etc. It's a partially thought through idea that needs retracting IMHO.
 
Using ethanol in car engines is a waste of good drinking alcohol. Why cant they use methylated alcohol?
 
Hi All, Just had a look at a website - www.bp/ultimate, quite a bit of info in there but mainly it states that BP Ultimate petrol does NOT contain ethanol!, so sleep easy! for more info have a look at this site for more on engines that do not have hardened valve seats etc.
DAV8
Dave
 
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