Difficult Cold-Starting

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petergh3

New Member
I'm in the U.S. with a NADA-spec 1968 TC. It runs fine despite unleaded fuel, and starts well when warm. Cold starts, however, are laborious, often taking over a minute, even if the weather isn't very cold. Even when it catches, it will spit and sputter for 30 seconds or so before finally running smoothly.

Common sense and process-of-elimination leads me to conclude that the problem is fuel-supply related, i.e. carb, probably choke. I'm a little chary about tearing into the carbs without a plan, though, so any advice or shared experience would be welcome.

Thanks,

Gordon.
 
Do you drive your car often, or does it sit for a few weeks between starting? If your car has sat for a while then the fuel in the float bowls will have evaporated, particularly if it has been in the hot sun, or a hot garage. The motor will have to turn over for a bit while the fuel pump fills them up. On the TC's the fuel bowls are quite large, so it can take a bit to fill them. I started my TC and went for a drive last weekend. The carbs have been rebuilt in mine, the fuel pump has been rebuilt and the fuel lines replaced, and it pretty much started like you described. What I should have done to save wear and tear on the stater motor is to have hand pumped the fuel pump a few times until I felt resistance indicating that the fuel bowls are full, then it would have started right up. Most of the time I do this if I drive it after the car has sat for a while. The lever is underneath the pump. The other solution to this is to install an electric fuel pump and blank off the place where the pump went originally. If the car is driven every day then you will not have this problem. It is never a problem when mine is used regularly.

James Radcliffe.
 
Gordon,
I reckon the advice from James is good. I had problems cold starting after my P6 was left sitting for a week or two. I found the fuel pump had gone. One of the valves inside the AC mechanical pump had failed and it just wasn't pumping enough fuel to fill the carb changers before my battery went flat - though it seemed OK when engine pump were warm. I fixed my pump with an overhaul kit off e-bay. These are cheap and worth a try to elimate any pump problem. Also, worth having a spare kit in your boot as they don't seem to be the most reliable of things.

If you disconnect the fuel line from the engine side of the pump (output side) and get an assistant to turn the engine over you should get healthy spurts of fuel coming out the pump. Just be sure to have a container/rags to catch the petrol (or do you say gas) and be careful. It might take a good few turns of the engine for the fuel to be drawn along the fuel pipe.

Do you have something like a Haynes manual that might give you a start on checking the carb's?

Also, have you ruled out all electrical problems? In the past I have convinced myself that starting/running problems on cars are fuel related only to eventually find it was electrical after all! For example, another starting problem with my 2200TC was eventually located to the rotor arm's insulation breaking down. Are you definitely getting a healthy spark on all four plugs?
 
Many thanks to all who responded. You've given me some leads and ideas. My first step will be to rebuild the fuel pump because that''s the one significant element (the carbs and the ignition system being the others) I haven't yet addressed. By the way, does anyone know if the fuel pump from a 4-cylinder Series Land Rover will fit a TC?

I'll let you know my progress.

Gordon.
 
Hi Gordon,

where in the US are you? I'm over in NJ. You could try Rockauto.com for the pump. They sometimes have them there and their prices are reasonable. The standard pump is an AC delco unit, I'm not sure if it crosses over from other engines though. The pumps, or rebuild kits, turn up on fleabay quite frequently so keep an eye out there. Alternativly convert to an electric pump. That would also cure the exssesive cranking when left over a week. You'll need to make up a blanking plate for the engine but that shouldn't be too painful.

Cheers,

Steven
 
I rebuild my fuel pump with a Goss fuel pump kit. This pump kit is the same for many different applications. Go to:
http://www.noelsautoparts.com.au/Goss%20Catalogue.pdf
The part number is 966VC. Do a search and you can find lots of crosses that this kit fits. You may be able to the research a locally available rebuild kit. The kit is not very large and included new valves, and shaft seal and diaphragm. It would not cost much to post from Australia.

If you do fit a new fuel pump be aware that there were 2 types fitted to the 2000's in the US. The early type is Rover part number 554684, (AC 7965022). This pump has a glass bowl. The other pump that is probably what is fitted to your car is Rover number 567000, (AC 7971244), and has a metal bowl. The rebuild kit is interchangeable. I would recommend rebuilding the one you have if you wish to perserve originallity. There is a pump FP24 available from the UK, which I think should work, but has not sediment bowl. You would need to add a inline fuel filter.

http://www.mcc-buy.com/rover_car_parts_car_spares.php


James.
 
Thanks again to all who responded to this thread. I feel I owe you an update, no matter how embarrassing to me. It turns out that the problem was simply that the chokes weren't adjusted properly, and the carb's weren't getting enough fuel when the engine was cold. Very logical, but it took me a while to get to it. In any case, I heeded all advice, including sending for a repair kit for the fuel pump.

Best, Gordon.
 
petergh3 said:
Thanks again to all who responded to this thread. I feel I owe you an update, no matter how embarrassing to me. It turns out that the problem was simply that the chokes weren't adjusted properly, and the carb's weren't getting enough fuel when the engine was cold. Very logical, but it took me a while to get to it. In any case, I heeded all advice, including sending for a repair kit for the fuel pump.

Best, Gordon.
Click to expand...

:) I was right! :)

Nice to here she is running well now. I've had to make a similar admission when I forgot to do the lock nuts on the cam sprocket on the cam shaft. It fell off breaking quite a few bits..... Happens to the best of us. :wink:
 
Now that the weather over here is normal for the season (6 to 7 degrees C early in the morning) i have some starting issues even when it is just parked for one day. With full choke it will take about 20 seconds of cranking, but if i insist more, it won't start like this. So after that initial cranking i try for a second time, this time without any choke at all, it starts within the first second, but i have to be quick and pull the choke again to allow the engine to run. After that, all is normal during warm up, without any hesitation.
Both choke levers work OK, the fuel pump supplies plenty of fuel and i don't know what to think. The battery is good enough to give normal cranking speed for up to about 1 minute (not continouusly of course). Then it trails off, and with a slow cranking i 'd better fetch the jumper cables. If i insist it will never start, but i will have a completely flat battery. Of course the 10:1 compression ratio doesn't help.
I am not really willing to splash out for a new battery at the moment, in a couple of months there will be no more issues like this, but for now i have to do something.
I forgot to mention that the carbs are spot on, as it the ignition (lumenition magnetronic) with relatively fresh components.
I am thinking that i should play with the plug gaps and ignition timing to see if any of these parameters helps cold start. Do you have anything to suggest?

Regards,

Demetris
 
To me it sounds like the choke is too rich for the initial start. Try 1/2 choke first time out. If this works, it's time to adjust the choke.
 
OrganDoctor said:
To me it sounds like the choke is too rich for the initial start. Try 1/2 choke first time out. If this works, it's time to adjust the choke.
Click to expand...

I already did that, and it didn't work. So it must be something else.
 
After your 20 seconds of cranking , take the plugs out and see if they are wet with petrol ,If so , that would suggest it is being overchoked .
I assume the plugs are new-ish ?
 
The plugs are 6 months old or so. It is one of the parts that i change every year.
So i removed them before attempting to start, just to get an idea of how the engine runs.






I started with the cylinder No1 and when i saw it i thought "Perfect! Who needs fuel injection!"
Plug No 2 was almost as good, but the No3 was black! Maybe the back carb was too rich then, but the No 4 plug was fine!
Strange really.
The only thing that could make sense it that cylinder No 3 is consuming some oil, but the plug did not look oiled. I checked the gaps again (0.90 mm) and fitted them back. I reduced slightly the fast idle adjustment and attempted a start. It started reasonably well, within 3 - 4 seconds probably and run fine as usual.
I don't think that the sooty plug is related too much with the starting issues, but it doesn't help either.
I have to keep looking at it.
 

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Unless it's a trick of the camera those plugs look to be running weak to me, apart from the one you say gets a bit of oil contamination, and IIRC 25 thou is 0.64mm so that would make 0.9mm getting close to 40 thou which if that's the case IMHO would be too wide, even if you've opened the gaps up to work in conjunction with electronic ignition.
 
Harvey,

i have set it up on purpose to run a bit lean. And yes i set the plugs at 35 thou as i use electronic ignition with a Lucas Gold coil.
In this way i get a rather impressive economy at 32 MPG on average with a lot of heavy traffic included.
The only obvious drawbacks at the moment were the fact that i had to use the fast idle facility of the choke until the oil gets up to about 50 degrees C and of course it is a little down on power. Perhaps i should add the difficulty in cold start now.
Did i get a litle OTT with my settings? Do you reckon that a plug gap of say 30 thou will be OK?
 
Hi Demetris,

I've read that you can increase the plug gap with electronic ignition to get a fatter spark, but I've not tried it yet as I didn't know where to take it to. Mine is still set at 25 thou and starts on the button (OK second time in sub zero).
If anyone has any recommendations for plug gap with electronic ignition I'd also be interested - I'm running the Pertronix with their flame thrower coil and Magnecor custom made leads - to make sure I'm getting all the power!

<Edit>
I've just emailed Pertronix to see if they have any recommendations, if they do, I'll post them here.

Cheers,
Bri.
 
I've just got a reply back from Pertronix re opening the plug gap up beyond the normal 25 thou, they say:

Brian, quite frankly there is very little advantage to opening the plug
gap. If you do so, no more than 32 thousandths total...

PerTronix
Click to expand...

So try closing them up a bit Demetris, maybe split the difference and make it 28 thou.

See if that helps your cold starting.

Bri.
 
Hi Gordon

I would second Brians comment that the gaps are too wide. Rule of thumb for unit conversion is 0.020" = 0.5mm but 30 thou (0.030"=0.75mm) should be the maximum gap.

I am concerned about your running the engine too lean. Running lean cam cause hot spots in the combustion chamber. This can burn a hole in your piston crown or the exhaust valve. As you imagine the coat of a rebuild will more than negate the fuel savings.

Hope that helps,

Steven
 
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