4 cyl fan switch

pat180269

Active Member
I'm having my rad re-cored and will get the company to fit a fan switch boss as I plan to fit an electric fan down the line. As I understand it the switch is normally placed close to the lower rad hose on the outlet side to monitor the coolant temperature going in to the engine. The theory being that when this warms up sufficiently its time to move more air over the radiator.

Looking at the side tanks on the 4cyl radiator they have ribs pressed into them and there is limited flat area in which to mount the boss for a suitable switch. There are a few different sizes of switch thread 3/8 BSPT, 14mm, 16mm and 22mm so I need to decide on a switch size and also the switching temperature. Common temperatures seem to be ON @ 92c, OFF @ 86c.

Assuming I mount the switch on the outlet side and I have a standard 82C thermostat if I use 92/86 won't the gauge read high because the gauge sender is mounted in the thermostat housing and the centre position of the gauge is 85C? Has anyone done this ?

Cheers

Pat
 
I was going to install an electric fan on my Rover 2000, however I set up a fan clutch with an 11 blade fan instead. This works well. I did however buy an electric fan, and electric control for it. The one I bought is adjustable, you set it up via trial and error.

Here is what I bought.

http://www.amazon.com/Hayden-Automotive ... ch+control

I would suggest that buying a non contact thermometer such as:

http://www.harborfreight.com/non-contac ... yj5ZM7kcR0

would help with getting the temperature set right. The Rover gauges are rather slow to respond.

James.
 
That's an interesting theory Pat, but as far as I know all aftermarket fans are triggered by sensing the temperature of the top hose, ie water coming out of the engine.

If you trigger the fan from the bottom hose you're building in a delay before the fan switches on - it won't come on until the whole radiator is hot so you'll have more heat to lose before the engine temperature is under control.

Regarding the boss in the radiator tank, it doesn't matter about the ribs or shaping if the boss is brazed in.
 
A completely different tack would be the following: The temp-sensor for the temp-gauge is a variable resistor whose signal shows up as a variable voltage at the temp-gauge. You tap this voltage and feed it to a tiny circuit with an adjustable threshold to operate a relais for your fan.

Codekiddie would be the man to comment on that.

Vin
 
That's how modern cars control the fan - water temperature measured (almost) directly at the cylinder head.
 
vin-kohler said:
Codekiddie would be the man to comment on that.

Vin
Should be fairly simple to achieve with a couple of comparators with adjustments for the initial 'fan on' temperature, and the hysteresis range :shock: (the temperature range between the fan on/off) :roll:
Probably only a handful of components required, and for not a lot of money :) and not forgetting the inclusion of an SMCJ30A eh Vin :LOL:
 
But before delving into the subtleties of our little circuit one needs someone to do the hardware.
Are you conversant with a soldering iron, Pat?

Vin
 
I am an electronics engineer would you believe ! Yes its an easy solution with a microcontroller. Could make the fan variable speed as well.
 
pat180269 said:
I am an electronics engineer would you believe ! Yes its an easy solution with a microcontroller. Could make the fan variable speed as well.
Quite true, but if I was going as far as adding a microcontroller, I would get it to do more than just the fan speed :shock: :shock: :shock:

I was thinking more along the lines of just a few discrete components, so someone who knows one end of a soldering iron from another, but nothing about programming as you and I do, could at least have a bash at it :p
 
I'm an electronics engineer too (but working in IT).

From a control systems point of view, putting the sensor away from the thermostat will inherently make the system less stable. The control of feedback i.e temp/open close valve is inherently more stable when they are together with little/no transfer function (i.e. that created by the large reservoir like a radiator). thinking intuitively, having the thermostat and fan switch working in sync is a more stable solution as it all works off water at the same temperature at the same time.

Controlling a fan speed is simple in terms of a PWM controller. Problem is some fans are 250W (20+ amps) upwards requiring some beefy (technical term) transistors. It also gets awkward fabricating circuit boards for these. And the potentially harsh conditions in the engine bay etc. are are problems. You can buy kits to do this should you want to, it is probably pointless (except as a hobby exercise) to engineering your own solution. Certainly microcontrollers are far, far too sophisticated for this application. I'd be looking at NE555 and adjustable pot technology at most...

In the real world most car manufacturers don't generally do this anyway (or at least most that I looked at). If you look at the specs of many thermoswitches, they have three terminals and trigger at two different temperatures (for example those used on a VW). These are great as you can either select a temperature to turn the fan on or engineer a solution for a 2 speed fan. Certainly on modern fords there is a simple (but substantial) resistor pack mounted behind the radiator as a speed control which I guess is switched from the engine block temperature sensor (rather than a switch directly) via the engine management.

So basically for refinement what you want is a slow speed which should be enough to cool in most conditions (most likely stationary/traffic and no fan when moving) and a full speed that only kicks-in in extreme conditions such as summer traffic jams with the aircon running.

In terms of "variable cooling" your stat does this to a degree as the temperature quoted is when it starts to open, it isn't a simple on/off. Full flow only happens another 7-8 degree higher when fully open.

Another thing to consider is that the thermoswitch would need to be set to match the thermostat. You'd want the stat to open first and the low speed cooling kick in say 5-7 degrees higher and the full speed say up around 100-105 degrees. In old cars it's not uncommon to use winter/summer stats; this far from optimal with electric cooling, unless you can change the swtiching points to suit - most likely you'll otherwise have the fan spinning pointlessly with the stat closed. With a good and stable cooling system you'll probably want to run the higher temperature winter stat for efficiency and performance all the time (who the hell changes stat on a modern car?). In other words instead of the 82 degree most people use you might want to look at running the 88 degree. Stability at higher temperatures is also why modern cars tend to have more substantial cooling systems than the marginal ones on our cars even though modern engines are inherently more efficient and waste less heat anyway - certainly in traffic jams my old Audi diesel couldn't make enough waste heat to heat the cabin in winter even with the cooling system completely shut off.

In conclusion I think the engineering consensus is you don't need a sophisticated solution, except perhaps in very new cars where temperature is far more important in terms of emissions control etc. I'd run a warmer stat and rig a two speed solution with a large single puller fan controlled from the top hose.

You'll get better fuel economy, not as most of these discussions usually mention just by NOT running the cooling fan from the engine all the time and the resistance this adds, but you'll get quicker warm-up and likely get more efficiency by the engine running at the right temperature more of the time, especially in winter. And of course less wear and generally cleaner running. A positive sign is you'll generally need to lower your idle speed right away. The low 80 degrees are really too cold even for a 1950/60s design IMHO; this is more a compromise to err on the safe side because inherently an engine driven fan is an awful solution; too little cooling when you really need it in traffic and too much when you don't when on the move.

e.g. This one triggers in the ranges 95-84C/102-91C which I'd guess would be a good match for a P6 running a 88 degree stat.

http://www.vwheritage.com/vw_spares_The ... tartPage=1

Rover themselves (perhaps ill-advisedly) actually took this to a further extreme by running the V8 (much) hotter still to keep the old engine within emissions limits into the 21st century.

Well that's a bit more than 2c worth. This is what I plan to do with my V8 anyway.
 
In my experience the simplest arrangement is a relayed thermo capillary switch located in the top rad hose. A kit can be bought very cheaply, but I would be wary of mounting the switch in the rad's fins as some kits advise. Much better to place in the hose and seal with a latex sleeve, which is typically also provided. There are also some surprisingly good fans on ebay for not a lot of money - Kenlowe are not the only option it seems; but again, I wouldn't listen to the instructions which tell you to mount the fan through the rad with nasty ties. I made a simple bracket and it works nicely. Once installed it's a case of adjusting the cut in temp of the fan, usually just above the typical reading on your gauge. I have this arrangement on my 2000TC and it barely comes on at this time of year. Happy cooling
 
roverrocket said:
In my experience the simplest arrangement is a relayed thermo capillary switch located in the top rad hose. A kit can be bought very cheaply, but I would be wary of mounting the switch in the rad's fins as some kits advise. Much better to place in the hose and seal with a latex sleeve, which is typically also provided.
I use that system (with a Kenlowe controller but SPAL fan) on my Land Rover, but it seems a pretty awful bodge needing a wing and a prayer to seal permanently. IMO, the OP is very sensible wanting to fit a sensor properly in the radiator, I'd also take that option too if I was having a radiator rebuilt.
 
Willy Eckerslyke said:
roverrocket said:
In my experience the simplest arrangement is a relayed thermo capillary switch located in the top rad hose. A kit can be bought very cheaply, but I would be wary of mounting the switch in the rad's fins as some kits advise. Much better to place in the hose and seal with a latex sleeve, which is typically also provided.
I use that system (with a Kenlowe controller but SPAL fan) on my Land Rover, but it seems a pretty awful bodge needing a wing and a prayer to seal permanently. IMO, the OP is very sensible wanting to fit a sensor properly in the radiator, I'd also take that option too if I was having a radiator rebuilt.

I agree it can be trouble if not done properly, but it needn't be a bodge. Tapping into the rad is very neat but from an originality perspective not everyone would appreciate it if you come to sell the car. Another option is a switch built in to a small section of ali pipe that is plumbed in to the top hose, but they are expensive and typically have predefined cut in/out temps rather than the flexibility of a dial. The main problem I had in terms of doing a proper job was where to affix the dial switch so as to be as discreet as possible. The wiring can nicely follow existing routing with the relay hidden in the bulkhead, but there's no escaping visibility of the rather clumsy and unsightly dial switch as it needs to be close to the capillary. I've accepted this as a trade off against cost and an easy return to stock
 
roverrocket said:
I agree it can be trouble if not done properly, but it needn't be a bodge. Tapping into the rad is very neat but from an originality perspective not everyone would appreciate it if you come to sell the car. Another option is a switch built in to a small section of ali pipe that is plumbed in to the top hose, but they are expensive and typically have predefined cut in/out temps rather than the flexibility of a dial. The main problem I had in terms of doing a proper job was where to affix the dial switch so as to be as discreet as possible. The wiring can nicely follow existing routing with the relay hidden in the bulkhead, but there's no escaping visibility of the rather clumsy and unsightly dial switch as it needs to be close to the capillary. I've accepted this as a trade off against cost and an easy return to stock

I understand and agree with the need to make the modifications neat and discreet, but with a great electric fan stuck to the rad i doubt that it is the tapped into the rad temperature sensor that will compromise the originality of the car.
 
Demetris said:
roverrocket said:
I agree it can be trouble if not done properly, but it needn't be a bodge. Tapping into the rad is very neat but from an originality perspective not everyone would appreciate it if you come to sell the car. Another option is a switch built in to a small section of ali pipe that is plumbed in to the top hose, but they are expensive and typically have predefined cut in/out temps rather than the flexibility of a dial. The main problem I had in terms of doing a proper job was where to affix the dial switch so as to be as discreet as possible. The wiring can nicely follow existing routing with the relay hidden in the bulkhead, but there's no escaping visibility of the rather clumsy and unsightly dial switch as it needs to be close to the capillary. I've accepted this as a trade off against cost and an easy return to stock

I understand and agree with the need to make the modifications neat and discreet, but with a great electric fan stuck to the rad i doubt that it is the tapped into the rad temperature sensor that will compromise the originality of the car.

Sorry I meant in terms of ease of returning to stock, or having that option as a prospective buyer. Tapping into the radiator is a permanent fixture, whereas a fan, wiring etc can be easily removed. I've met car aficionados that would look on it unfavourably
 
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