3500 VIP Wiring

A

alexb1406

New Member
Hi Folks - as you may have guessed I bought the recent VIP that was on eBay.

There are a few wiring issues with things that have been cut in the past and joined together unprofessionally so I will be looking to restore everything to original. One of these items is the wiring to the electric fuel pump that someone has wired through the air con switch and straight to the battery - presumably as some kind of anti theft protection! (Air con bits still need replacing) It is electric as were all cars that had air con, but I can't find any reference in any of the wiring diagrams or Haynes book where the feed to the pump comes from. It has to be ignition switched, but was there any additional protection in case of impact?

I'm sure there will be more but for now I just want to get it running under its own steam. I have had it running for a few seconds - oil looks very clean and I don't think has been used much so I left it as it was - oil pressure came straight up - but there is still a fuel blockage somewhere that I need to investigate.
 
Don't know but I'd fit an inertia switch as a matter of course. The Land/Range rover type can be had for a tenner on ebay. Very simple to fit in series with the wiring.

I don't have the Rover type pump (actually I didn't know any P6 had an electric fuel pump from the factory) I have an after market Huco pump and I used this to empty the tank of old fuel when disconnected. I was extremely impressed it could shift a pint in about 3 seconds. I'd be less impressed if this was on to a hot manifold in the event of a smash. Given the battery is in the boot there is a good chance it would continue to run even in quite a heavy shunt.

Every car I've seen is wired through the ignition. Some cars have an additional safety device also which uses a timer relay and the oil pressure switch. Basically if you start the ignition you get a number of seconds to start the car and if the engine stalls and the oil pressure warning comes on it'll cut out after that time also.
 
It's my understanding that the VIP cars were based on the NADA spec - all the US cars had electric fuel pumps under the back seat. NADA wiring diagrams are in the workshop manuals.
 
testrider said:
It's my understanding that the VIP cars were based on the NADA spec - all the US cars had electric fuel pumps under the back seat. NADA wiring diagrams are in the workshop manuals.
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I have the Haynes manual that doesn't specifically show the NADA wiring. This fuel pump is under the car in the rear suspension area (is that what you meant by under the back seat?)


PeterZRH said:
Don't know but I'd fit an inertia switch as a matter of course. The Land/Range rover type can be had for a tenner on ebay. Very simple to fit in series with the wiring.

Every car I've seen is wired through the ignition. Some cars have an additional safety device also which uses a timer relay and the oil pressure switch. Basically if you start the ignition you get a number of seconds to start the car and if the engine stalls and the oil pressure warning comes on it'll cut out after that time also.
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Yes I know it has to be wired through the ignition, but in the interest of originality, where did Rover take the feed from? Fuse box, ignition switch, or other? Apparently cars that had air con were fitted with an electric pump from the factory - probably because with the compressor mounted on the engine there was no space for the normal manual pump. I probably will add an inertia switch or wire it through a relay to detect engine running using the alternator wiring and also engine cranking if there wasn't such a system in already. This is where the proper NADA wiring diagram will help if someone has one they could put up here for me.
 
The NADA models were known as the 3500s in the US and the wiring diagram is on page 190 and 191 of my Haynes manual, component 49. It looks like it's fed from the fuse box on the inner wing.
 
testrider said:
The NADA models were known as the 3500s in the US and the wiring diagram is on page 190 and 191 of my Haynes manual, component 49. It looks like it's fed from the fuse box on the inner wing.
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Ah, thank you! I must have gone cross-eyed trying to find it!
 
You won't find the air-con wiring diagram for any post 1973 cars in any manual that I've come across. Cars prior to that, had pick up points in the main harness for air con & some body harnesses had a white, ignition controlled wire in them for the fuel pump, but post 73 cars didn't. I have 2 vip air con harnesses in the garage, when I get a chance, I'll get them out & remind myself of where they connect to.
So just to be clear,a vip loom, is nothing like a Nada loom!
 
Thanks Roly, I'd appreciate that. Actually, the air con wiring and vacuum connections are in the car handbook that I have with the car, although very tatty. My wiring is a mess - someone's cut many of the wires to the centre console and rejoined them all with scotch locks - Why?!? Some of the wires have been cut and rerouted to feed the fuel pump via the a/c switch. I wonder whether it would be better to replace the whole a/c wiring loom if it is a separate loom and if you would be prepared to sell me one. Is the fuel pump wiring part of the a/c loom? The wiring diagram shows it as being white but the wire at the fuel pump end that looks original is green/white - a plausible colour but I still can't find where the pick up point is around the fuse box or behind the dash, W or GW. I can't imagine it would come from anywhere else.
 
Alex, are you on the P6 club on facebook? I only ask, as I find it a lot easier to load pictures on fb.

Ok, the air-con loom comes through the bulkhead in one big lump, with the vacuum pipes. All the connections from that loom to the 6RA relay that is fixed to the centre console, are as per the standard air-con diagram & to the pull switch on the dash rail, it's the other side of the relay where it differs on the later & Vip cars. There is a seperate loom that connects from there, to the rest of the car. It runs up towards the general direction of the 12 way fusebox, where you'll find an in-line fuse that appears from the loom, it then runs up behind the wood finisher & connects to a permanent live adjacent to the ammeter shunt & to an ignition controlled wire from the rev counter, from memory. The supply to the fuel pump, is a seperate wire, fed from this extra loom, that runs along the floor to the pump, next to the standard body loom & is I think, the same colour that you have, as opposed to the white wire of earlier & Nada cars.

As I say, if you're on fb, I'll take some pictures of the looms & upload them.
 
Thanks Roly - I'm not on fb although I opened a profile and never used it. Let me have the link but do I need to be a P6 club member to see them? - Something I plan to do soon although I was a member many years ago but let it lapse as I have joined far too many clubs!

I'll have a look at what you described maybe tomorrow - I've been busy removing the water pump this evening - seized! Aaaargh!!!
 
Roly said:
Try & nurse the water pump back to health if you can & whatever you do, don't bin it! They're like hens teeth.
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I've tried but this pump needs more than nursing. I'm now searching for a hen with teeth - JRW are going on holiday for 2 weeks and the chap I spoke to there this morning had never heard of a VIP and had never seen a P6 with a viscous (it wasn't Jonathan - I expect he will know). They can send it away for rebuilding but that will probably not happen till after they come back now so I won't get it back for 6 weeks or so.

Another firm I have used in the past for rebuilding water pumps (they did my Mk1 P5 and an XJS pump for me) - again, they have never seen this pump - suggested to remove the flange they would have to cut the stud off for the viscous, drill a hole in the flange, thread it and use the thread to pull the flange off, and then fabricate another stud for the viscous - all at a cost of over £300. I'm not convinced this is necessary unless someone can tell me otherwise - and I don't like the thought of it either!

My next door neighbour who has an engineering firm was confident that it should be fairly easy to dismantle the pump, but I need to source the bearing and seal for it. Anyone have any ideas where I can buy these?

Or, can anyone recommend a firm that can rebuild the pump for me.
 
Can someone confirm if this is right

It looks to me as if both solid fan and viscous fan pumps are the same with the exception of the flange that is pressed onto the front. If that is so, then I could buy the normal pump and get my engineering guy to swap the flange over.
 
Alex,

Do sent me a PM and we'll discuss the details of pump rebuilds. I might have an exchange unit shortly which you can use, if yours is eligble for rebuilding.

We have had a rebuild researched and done, and it involves machining the shaft down to take obtainable bearings and then press fitting it back together. It's tedious and takes a while, but really worth it considering the cramped engine bay on air-contioned cars.

Andries
 
Thanks Andries, I have today finally got the pump back from the engineering shop. I purchased a normal pump with the idea of removing the flange from mine and pressing it onto the new pump, however we were unable to do this even with several tons pulling power, so we made up a new flange to match the original and pressed that onto the new pump. The new pump shaft had to be cut down as it is longer than the standard pump. It was a tedious job as you say. Now I have to remove one broken stud - I never noticed this before but it must have been broken from before because I didn't break any. Hopefully I will do this in the next few days.

Meanwhile the wiring saga continues. I am having to rewire and repair wiring to all the lighting - as before wires have been cut, twisted together and covered with bits of insulating tape. As would be expected very little worked properly, there are shorts everywhere - I would really like to find the idiot who did this; I haven't worked out what to do to him yet but trust me, it won't be pleasant!
 
Maybe I'm being a little too fussy but which way does the light green/red wire from the heater box to the a/c compressor route? I assume it comes through the bulkhead from the heater box (or does it?) with the main batch of wires and vacuum tubes and then goes back out into the engine bay on the left hand side somewhere near the wiper motor. Does it go through the same hole as the main wiring loom? There is another hole a little lower down with a grommet that looks like it used to have something going through it - could it route through there?
 
alexb1406 said:
Maybe I'm being a little too fussy but which way does the light green/red wire from the heater box to the a/c compressor route? I assume it comes through the bulkhead from the heater box (or does it?) with the main batch of wires and vacuum tubes and then goes back out into the engine bay on the left hand side somewhere near the wiper motor. Does it go through the same hole as the main wiring loom? There is another hole a little lower down with a grommet that looks like it used to have something going through it - could it route through there?
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I'll check tomorrow the wire route, but I seem to remember it goes through the same hole. It does not really matter, as long as it doesn't go through the same hole as the choke cable/bonnet lock release (for people with LHD cars).
 
Thanks Andries - this is a RHD car and the main wiring loom goes through the bulkhead behind the glove box, next to the fuse box.
 
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