V8 manual gearboxes?

colnerov said:
Which proves my point the car could bear a taller FDR with the existing set up.
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Actually, I suppose you're right.

P. S. You live near Gatwick, not very far from me - any chance you could check out the Dunsfold thread I created? There's been no response at all so far, which is rather disappointing.
 
I've just taken our LT77 equipped 3500S for a serious blast on the open road and the torque in third gear is astounding...I've never driven anything with that degree of power in third.

I think, if pressed, you could drive it 'normally' with just second and third gears on. Incredible.
 
NickDunning said:
I've just taken our LT77 equipped 3500S for a serious blast on the open road and the torque in third gear is astounding...I've never driven anything with that degree of power in third.

I think, if pressed, you could drive it 'normally' with just second and third gears on. Incredible.
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Careful, you'll get addicted :D
 
I've just had a thought. Clearly, the ZF 4-speed slushmashic horror can be fitted to the V8 - I wonder if the contemporary ZF 5-speed manual would fit?
 
Actually the ZF 4 speed isn't so bad. It has lock up on third and on fourth, so economy at speed is the same as a manual and, as importantly, all the power gets through to the wheels. The HP22 and HP24 can both go in the HP22 casing (24 has a much higher torque capacity so is bombproof as far as any Rover derivative is concerned, whereas the 22 gets a bit marginal around 250 brake) so can both be easily grafted to the back of a Rover V8, and there's "just" enough room for them in the tunnel of an auto shell. The five six and seven speeders use a different family of casings and, even if you could sort out the bell housing, I don't think they are going to fit in the tunnel without surgery.

The fourth gear overdrive ratio is the same as the LT77/R380 so gives a nice relaxed cruise, and the torque of the engine really doesn't call for any more than four gears. If you must go flappy paddle this is possible on both the 22 and 24 provided you use the Jag or BMW electronic versions. There are a number of yankee aftermarket control systems, designed originally to control auto boxes behind dragsters, which allow you to set the transmission up exactly as you want it. Speed of change, harshness of change, change trigger points, torque convertor lock up points etc etc. Only problem is, you can programme in conflicting instructions which will result in a very big bang, so you really need to understand the box before you start!

Chris
 
chrisyork said:
Actually the ZF 4 speed isn't so bad. It has lock up on third and on fourth, so economy at speed is the same as a manual and, as importantly, all the power gets through to the wheels. The HP22 and HP24 can both go in the HP22 casing (24 has a much higher torque capacity so is bombproof as far as any Rover derivative is concerned, whereas the 22 gets a bit marginal around 250 brake) so can both be easily grafted to the back of a Rover V8, and there's "just" enough room for them in the tunnel of an auto shell. The five six and seven speeders use a different family of casings and, even if you could sort out the bell housing, I don't think they are going to fit in the tunnel without surgery.

The fourth gear overdrive ratio is the same as the LT77/R380 so gives a nice relaxed cruise, and the torque of the engine really doesn't call for any more than four gears. If you must go flappy paddle this is possible on both the 22 and 24 provided you use the Jag or BMW electronic versions. There are a number of yankee aftermarket control systems, designed originally to control auto boxes behind dragsters, which allow you to set the transmission up exactly as you want it. Speed of change, harshness of change, change trigger points, torque convertor lock up points etc etc. Only problem is, you can programme in conflicting instructions which will result in a very big bang, so you really need to understand the box before you start!

Chris
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Hmm - I remember reading up on some BMW that used the ZF 4-speeder and it was a good 2 or 3mpg down on the manual. I know the modern 5, 6 and 8-speeders (ZF never did a 7) won't fit, I just wondered if the old ZF five-speed manual from the same era as the 4-speed slusher would fit... also, how would you integrate a paddle shift thing into the P6? Can't imagine how that would look...
 
Ahh. The five speed manual. As I recall this was an extremely agricultural box. I drove them at Vauxhalls when they were fitting them to CF vans (!!). A lovely short change action, but fundamentally a racing derived box, so no concessions to poor speed matching etc! Physically it is surprisingly small, so would undoubtedly go down the tunnel. But the usual problems with a "foreign" to the engine box of sorting out clutch and bellhousing.

Chris
 
chrisyork said:
Ahh. The five speed manual. As I recall this was an extremely agricultural box. I drove them at Vauxhalls when they were fitting them to CF vans (!!). A lovely short change action, but fundamentally a racing derived box, so no concessions to poor speed matching etc! Physically it is surprisingly small, so would undoubtedly go down the tunnel. But the usual problems with a "foreign" to the engine box of sorting out clutch and bellhousing.

Chris
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Well, I've encountered it in an old BMW, and it's a very nice 'box - a bit notchy, but quite short throw, very precise. I'd have no problem with a racing-derived 'box in a P6... after all, the P6 was originally intended to be rallied and so on! I take it you couldn't just use the bellhousing from a ZF auto? Do torque-converters have conventional bellhousings?

P. S. For a brief while I was quite interested in the old BMC Farinas (Austin Cambridge and so on) and I was told that one popular conversion for them was the Ford Sierra 5-speed 'box, as adaptor plates are made to fit it to the B-series engine - I just wondered if it would fit the back of an RV8... also, Ford sell a six-speed which is used a lot in Caterhams and so on, and wondered if that would fit...

Oh, and the other thing is, the American Tremec T-5 'box is a popular fit to Rover V8s in the US of A, and even over here (I believe the R380 is basically the same thing) - could you therefore fit the six-speed T56 (Corvette, DB7 and so on)? I'm told it's a bit agricultural, but again, just wondering...
 
What was the 5 speed box fitted to Uk cars in the 70's with a dog-leg 1st gear - ie to the left and back ?
Was it fitted to Vauxhall Magnums/Chevettes or Sunbeam Lotus's ?
 
Hi Eccentric Richard. I agree 100% with your description of the ZF in a BMW. I thought that was exactly how I described it? As Dave says, also used in some of the mid 70's homologation specials like the Lotus Sunbeam and Chevette HS, along with the fabled end of run VX 4/90 (vanishingly rare and a real sports saloon - not to be confused with ealier incarnations which were a bit damp). Some of these were Getrag rather than ZF, I can't remeber which off hand.

The Ford boxes (both types) are a relatively common fit to the V8, I think most people use the Borg Warner Auto bell housing. Undoubtedly the best option available at the moment is the Tremec box in both 5 and six speed. RPI do a full package as per the link below, although probably not the cheapest way of doing it! The R380 is a reworking of the LT77 by BL primarily for the LDV vans, although it also made it into the MG RV8 and Morgans and some TVR's.

Chris

http://www.v8wizard.com/Tremec_T5.php
 
chrisyork said:
Hi Eccentric Richard. I agree 100% with your description of the ZF in a BMW. I thought that was exactly how I described it? As Dave says, also used in some of the mid 70's homologation specials like the Lotus Sunbeam and Chevette HS, along with the fabled end of run VX 4/90 (vanishingly rare and a real sports saloon - not to be confused with ealier incarnations which were a bit damp). Some of these were Getrag rather than ZF, I can't remeber which off hand.

The Ford boxes (both types) are a relatively common fit to the V8, I think most people use the Borg Warner Auto bell housing. Undoubtedly the best option available at the moment is the Tremec box in both 5 and six speed. RPI do a full package as per the link below, although probably not the cheapest way of doing it! The R380 is a reworking of the LT77 by BL primarily for the LDV vans, although it also made it into the MG RV8 and Morgans and some TVR's.

Chris

http://www.v8wizard.com/Tremec_T5.php
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You described the ZF as being a bit agricultural, which I didn't really agree with... Now, which Ford box is a relatively common fit to the V8? Can you get a Ford six-speed for the V8?

The unfortunate thing about the Tremec T-56 is it really is a bit agricultural - not the most precise 'box in the world.

Now, if only the P6's engine bay was wider, I'd just say 'to hell with originality' and bung in the Jag quad-cam V8 and modern ZF 'box...
 
Agricultaral = notchy! Doesn't like fast shifts at non matching engine speeds either - very obstructive synchro = agricultural. Brilliant fo a sporting or competition driver but fights back to little old ladies!

I'm not brilliant at Ford boxes - Type 9 is one - I think that's the late Capri box? The other is the Sierra Cosworth one. Six speed!? Didn't know Ford had got as far as that with RWD boxes. Certainly not suitable for a P6 though - you'd lose more time changing gear than you'd gain.

I agree about the T5, that's the problem with a box designed to accept very high torques - makes all the rotating components that much heavier. But it is unburstable!

Chris
 
chrisyork said:
Agricultaral = notchy! Doesn't like fast shifts at non matching engine speeds either - very obstructive synchro = agricultural. Brilliant fo a sporting or competition driver but fights back to little old ladies!

I'm not brilliant at Ford boxes - Type 9 is one - I think that's the late Capri box? The other is the Sierra Cosworth one. Six speed!? Didn't know Ford had got as far as that with RWD boxes. Certainly not suitable for a P6 though - you'd lose more time changing gear than you'd gain.

I agree about the T5, that's the problem with a box designed to accept very high torques - makes all the rotating components that much heavier. But it is unburstable!

Chris
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Notchy isn't necessarily agricultural. Notchy can still be quite precise. From what I've heard the T56 is a rather imprecise thing, with a rather vague change - Clarkson loved it in the ZR1 he drove in the US, but, when he drove another ZR1 over here more recently

Also, I thought you could get a six-speeder from Ford for Caterhams and suchlike? Plus there's this beast here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_FG_Falcon

I so want one of those. RWD. Straight-six or V8, I don't care. Six-speed manual. Plus you don't get accused of BMW-ish badge-snobbery...

The reason I'm talking six speeds for a P6 is that I'd like a lowish first, second, third and fourth for acceleration (I'd quite like to use it on trackdays) but I'd also want a really tall top for relaxed and economical cruising, but not too big a gap between it and fourth.

I wonder if the six-speeder used by Ferrari will bolt up to the Alfa Romeo de Dion rear transaxle?
 
Lots of late Supras are 6 speed, and I'm fairly sure there are supra box conversions for the V8

EDIT - It appears the 6 speed supra box has a cast-in bellhousing which makes conversions much more difficult, I couldn't find a standard kit, although plenty available for the 5 speed supra boxes.
 
I see this on a dutch site:manual 5 speed box, incl. bellhouse can i built in a P6?what for stuff i need more?? it is coming out an SD 3500 V8.
Is it easy for making inside the car the left pedal??

In een goede conditie!
Compleet met bellhouse voor montage aan Rover V8 blok, en eventueel ook met het vliegwiel, drukgroep etc.. Leuk voor ombouw kitcar of voor uw SD1 natuurlijk!
 
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