Tappety Tap Tap Tap

lil nicky

New Member
Hi,

Project Christine is now into the stages of fixing the annoying rather than the desparate. Next on the list is a very annoying noisy tappet which is ruining my enjoyment of the V8 song. Can anyone advise me as to how to shut this rattly tappet up? Theres only one and its on number one cylinder.

Thanks,

Nick
 
Hello Nick,

I am assuming that changing the engine oil to a good quality 20W-50 with sufficient zinc content makes no difference?

It is not really a proposition to replace just the one lifter (tappet) which is the possible culprit although you could if you wanted to. Doing so though is likely to quickly destroy the corresponding camshaft lobe. The only real option is to replace all the lifters AND install a new camshaft at the same time. Reason being you cannot use new lifters with a used camshaft as unfortunately the latter will quickly see the lobes wear away, so maybe in less than 2000 miles you will need to do it ALL again.

Ron.
 
i use to have a noisy tappet on my orginal engine i bough some stuff from halfords put that in the engine after a while the tappet stop same thing happen to my m8 did the same a year later still no tapping
 
SydneyRoverP6B said:
Hello Nick,

I am assuming that changing the engine oil to a good quality 20W-50 with sufficient zinc content makes no difference?

It is not really a proposition to replace just the one lifter (tappet) which is the possible culprit although you could if you wanted to. Doing so though is likely to quickly destroy the corresponding camshaft lobe.
The only real option is to replace all the lifters AND install a new camshaft at the same time. Reason being you cannot use new lifters with a used camshaft as unfortunately the latter will quickly see the lobes wear away, so maybe in less than 2000 miles you will need to do it ALL again.

Ron.

Hello Ron, Just a question to you: if the camshaft is reasonable new, if all hydraulic tappets are reasonable new but one hydraulic tappet is noisy like tappety tap tap tap..(or crook in your language), why will a brand new tappet destroy the corresponding camshaft lobe? - having failed to detect the noisy tappet but pretty sure it is related to cylinder 7, I plan to remove the 2 tappets on left bank cylinder7. - therefore another Q: what exactly makes the dreadful tap tap tap-sound? Is it possible to pick the crooked one visually if you have lot on the table? Can it be repaired? - Do you fill up with engine oil before you place them in the engine? And how? open them up or soak them?? regards, Chris Varming+++
 
The tap-tap is caused by one or both of two different problems. If the cam lobe is badly warn this can induce a tap. If the lifter is getting inadequate oil supply (dirty oil passages, weak oil pump etc etc) or its internal clearances are greater than optimum. Changing just the lifter will hopefully cure the latter. Unfortunately the cam and the lifter surface wear into each other in the immediate running in stage - first 200 mls. This results in an exchange of metal between the two which then diffuses into the metal of the host, both cam and lifter. If you then change just the lifter, the new lifter has no camshaft metal in its wearing surface, whereas the cam has lifter material infused already. The new lifter will therefore quickly destroy the surface hardening of the old cam and start eating its way through to the base circle. Most likely silently, it must be said. But even more silently when the affected cylinder ceases to fire on account of there being no cam to open the valve. Of course if the cam is already worn on that lobe all bets are off and instant destruction ensues instead of a short period of grace!

Changing the cam and lifters is actually one of the more problematic jobs. The mechanical work is easy enough, but the recommended start up procedure relies on having a running-in paste on the cam and on the engine being immediately run at 2,000 rpm for 20 mins! Such a hair raising start up gives you the clue that if something is going to fail it will either do so quite soon after start up or remain in good order for many 10,000's of miles.

You report a relatively new cam and lifters. I'd guess you have had an unsuccessful running in operation as above. Sorry!

Chris
 
Chris Varming wrote,...
Hello Ron, Just a question to you: if the camshaft is reasonable new, if all hydraulic tappets are reasonable new but one hydraulic tappet is noisy like tappety tap tap tap..(or crook in your language), why will a brand new tappet destroy the corresponding camshaft lobe? - having failed to detect the noisy tappet but pretty sure it is related to cylinder 7, I plan to remove the 2 tappets on left bank cylinder7. - therefore another Q: what exactly makes the dreadful tap tap tap-sound? Is it possible to pick the crooked one visually if you have lot on the table? Can it be repaired? - Do you fill up with engine oil before you place them in the engine? And how? open them up or soak them?? regards, Chris Varming

Hello Chris,

The only thing that I can add to the excellent reply that Chris York has given in answer to your questions is with regards to the lifters. Pop them in a nice clean tin and cover them with engine oil and leave them to soak. You could do this the day before if you wish to. Then before fitting pump the inner sleeve of each in turn using a push rod so as to prime each tappet. This will help to reduce tappet noise when the engine is first started. Lubricate the lifter bores with engine oil prior to fitting them.

If you were to use a non standard camshaft with more than the factory standard lift, then you would need to check and adjust the lifter preload, in which case the lifters must not be soaked nor primed before installing.

Ron.
 
Thanks to you Chris and to you Ron regarding the lifter problem. Now, I might be a pain in the ..., but try and follow my thoughts, : given the cam shaft is relatively new, given the lifters are all relatively new. As I read you, it is advisable to change (again) one cam shaft and 16 hydraulic lifters just because of one or two faulty lifters? - Now to my second question: if you have two faulty lifters, is it possible (and advisable) to change the internal parts of the lifters (spring, inner sleeve) and use the external lifter cylinder? if so, it will have solved the surface touch with the cam shaft as before. I have never thought of that before, but the alternative for 2 faulty lifters will be to change the lot and that will quite expensive. I hope you understand my thoughts although they are Danish...Regards, Chris Varming+
 
This is a trick I employed when repairing a 327 AMC Hudson engine many years ago, the engine hydraulic tappets leaked down far to quick, cheapest solution was to rebuild the internals as finding a new camshaft and rockers for this car in the 1970's in NZ was not an option.

Graeme
 
It seems like I have the same problem with my car after it stood for a good 16 years.
We started it and let it run for about ten minutes on tickover. It had very slight tappet rattle on the left side only. Then we dumped the oil while it was warm, and filled the engine with 20W50. After a new startup, the rattle was gone. We then had the car sit another three weeks before it was started again, run for 10 minutes with no problems, then we dumped the oil and filter, replaced the filter according to the manual and filled with fresh 10W40. The car started up with no rattle and immediate oil pressure. But then very quickly developed what sounds like one lifter doing its clack, clack, clack... - again in the left head.
I added that Halfords stuff for valve lifters, but as of yet it didn't make a difference. Does anyone know how long it takes for this to work, or rather, after which distance travelled one can assume it won't work?
 
I dont know how long it will take or even if it will, however an oil that I use on my Mitsi GTO which exhibits the same problem with lots of lifter tick on standard high performance oils is Valvoline Semisynth or recently rebranded as Syngard 10-40 eliminates all tick, this stuff works very well but if used in the Rover engine I would suggest an additive to replace the lower levels of zinc in the form of ZDDP (zinc di-thiophosphate)

Graeme
 
Chris: That solution would overcome the cam to lifter wear problem. But it is a new one on me and I'd defer to others as to how practical it is to rebuild the internals of the lifters. There remains the possibility that actually it is the surfaces of the cam and lifters that have failed to bed in satisfactorily together. But you ought to see this once you have the engine open to recover the lifter.

Junkman: If you are referring to a Rover V8 then 10W40 will speed it to an early grave! A good classic 20/50 with lots of ZDDP and no modern synthetics is the only answer! And change both oil and filter at 3,000 mile intervals!

Chris
 
Chris Varming wrote,...
Thanks to you Chris and to you Ron regarding the lifter problem. Now, I might be a pain in the ..., but try and follow my thoughts, : given the cam shaft is relatively new, given the lifters are all relatively new. As I read you, it is advisable to change (again) one cam shaft and 16 hydraulic lifters just because of one or two faulty lifters? - Now to my second question: if you have two faulty lifters, is it possible (and advisable) to change the internal parts of the lifters (spring, inner sleeve) and use the external lifter cylinder? if so, it will have solved the surface touch with the cam shaft as before. I have never thought of that before, but the alternative for 2 faulty lifters will be to change the lot and that will quite expensive. I hope you understand my thoughts although they are Danish...Regards, Chris Varming

Hello Chris,

How many kilometres has your new camshaft and lifters been used for?

If you have two new lifters, you can dismantle the old ones and fit the new sleeve, spring, non return ball valve and clip into the old lifter outer sleeves. You will need to verify that there is no damage to the base of the lifters that you removed from the engine. When new, the base of the lifters is convex, and with wear it becomes flat and then concave.

The noise could be internal within the lifters, or it could be a result of the lifters not rotating within their bores as they operate, in which case damage to both lifter and camshaft lobe is taking place. If the lifter is concave, then the camshaft lobe will also be damaged, so then you will need to decide what course of action you wish to pursue.

Ron.
 
chrisyork said:
Junkman: If you are referring to a Rover V8 then 10W40 will speed it to an early grave! A good classic 20/50 with lots of ZDDP and no modern synthetics is the only answer! And change both oil and filter at 3,000 mile intervals!

Chris

That's rather interesting, since oil as thin as 10W30 is specified on the factory lubrication sticker on the inner wing. ATM my oil change interval is more like 3 miles, than 3000.
I also have the impression, that the rh rocker shaft is rather dry, when I peep through the filler opening while the engine is ticking over. Maybe there is no oil at all arriving at the top?

Oil pressure is well over 50 on startup and never goes below 30 unless the engine is hot and ticking over. But it's back at 30+ if revved ever so slightly.

I'm also a tad puzzled by the fact that the engine is still running smooth as silk despite all the lifter rattle.
 
Junkman wrote,...
That's rather interesting, since oil as thin as 10W30 is specified on the factory lubrication sticker on the inner wing. ATM my oil change interval is more like 3 miles, than 3000.
I also have the impression, that the rh rocker shaft is rather dry, when I peep through the filler opening while the engine is ticking over. Maybe there is no oil at all arriving at the top?

Oil pressure is well over 50 on startup and never goes below 30 unless the engine is hot and ticking over. But it's back at 30+ if revved ever so slightly.

I'm also a tad puzzled by the fact that the engine is still running smooth as silk despite all the lifter rattle.

Hello Junkman,

Oil pressure well over 50 psi on startup is very high indeed. What rpm delivers this pressure?

Oil enters the rockershafts via a gallery within the forward pedestal. The gallery is 3/16" in diameter. Usually there is more than enough oil reaching the rocker assemblies, so it is possible that there is a blockage in a gallery preventing or reducing flow. This would also increase the oil pressure beyond what is normal.

In the Factory workshop manual from 1972, Rover recommended engine oil of either 10W-40 or 20W-50 specification. However, this was later changed to just 20W-50. The design of the oil pump precluded the efficient movement of oils below the equivalent of a straight 20 weight oil, hence 20W-50 became the recommended lubricant.

Ron.
 
SydneyRoverP6B said:
Hello Junkman,

Oil pressure well over 50 psi on startup is very high indeed. What rpm delivers this pressure?

Oil enters the rockershafts via a gallery within the forward pedestal. The gallery is 3/16" in diameter. Usually there is more than enough oil reaching the rocker assemblies, so it is possible that there is a blockage in a gallery preventing or reducing flow. This would also increase the oil pressure beyond what is normal.

In the Factory workshop manual from 1972, Rover recommended engine oil of either 10W-40 or 20W-50 specification. However, this was later changed to just 20W-50. The design of the oil pump precluded the efficient movement of oils below the equivalent of a straight 20 weight oil, hence 20W-50 became the recommended lubricant.

Ron.

Ron

My 3500S's oil pressure will sit right up at 60 when cold and just driving off. It drops gradually to about the figures shown in the pics I posted some time ago as it warms up.

oil20pressure20at20idle.jpg


oil20pressure20at202K20rpm.jpg


I've never viewed the high starting oil pressure as anything untoward, provided it drops as the engine warms up.

Dave
 
Mine does exactly the same as Dave's and I thought this is a good thing.

Anyway, I give it a last shot with 20W50 and Wynns lifter treatment and if that doesn't help, I guess it's a camshaft kit from Rimmers.
 
Ron will know this. I seem to remember that if you put the rockers in wrong way round, easiest achieved by putting left bank on right, that blocks off the oil feed to the rockers?

Chris
 
Dave3066 wrote,...
My 3500S's oil pressure will sit right up at 60 when cold and just driving off. It drops gradually to about the figures shown in the pics I posted some time ago as it warms up.

Hello Dave,

I asked junkman at what rpm his engine delivered in excess of 50psi in oil pressure, to which he has replied..at tickover. What your engine is doing is completely fine and normal, 50psi or so just over 2000 rpm when cold is not the same as that pressure at idle.

Hello Junkman,

50 psi oil pressure at idle is excessive indeed, so either the sender is at fault (is it the original Smiths sender?) or there could be an inpediment to flow in a gallery or possibly the oil pressure relief valve within the oil pump front cover is not opening, and therefore regulating pressure.

Hello Chris,

The rocker shafts are indeed sided. There is an identification groove on the end of each shaft, and this is to be placed uppermost and towards the front of the engine on the R/H side, and towards the rear of the engine on the L/H side.

Ron.
 
My engine wasn't touched, so the rockers are in the same way the factory put them in.

Anyway, got tired of the whole thing and revved it a few times to 4k. Now the big nasty clack clack clack is gone and pretty much all lifters rattle a little. I.e. the noise clearly comes from under the rocker covers. Hence I will dump the oil again tomorrow and relace it with 20W50 and Wynns lifter treatment.

Total distance travelled since first startup after 16 years of being parked up - 30 miles. I'm convinced this will go away once I drive it more.

Any other additives that you would recommend after being standing for so long?
 
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