Sparky's winter/spring/summer/autumn work

Interestingly this car was copied from 808D, which now has a Jag diff, but according to Bill Price who was in charge back then the car had the stock De Dion setup and never was raced with a Jag diff..
My mate who used to race a P6 in the local Classics used a setup with a wishbone and the DeDion tube, except he used an Alfetta transaxle in the back. The rules at the time required that the suspension utilised the factory hard points if it was modified away from original.
 

quattro

Well-Known Member
Any update on this?
Nope :oops:

I have been doing a few things but have been busy at work and have a sick family member so time is a little short.

The diff is however in the car now, and although I forgot to put oil in it, I don't think it has to come out again :)

I'll sort some piccies out if I can :)

Richard
 

quattro

Well-Known Member
I have managed to get the brakes sorted. The P6 handbrake cable ends are of a similar size to the round fittings of the jag calipers. After a bit of pondering, I drilled out the forward spot weld and prised the jaws open then managed to force the Rover ends in. I then used a small nut and bolt to replace the spot weld, just in case I need to replace the cable at some time. Happily, they fitted exactly with no play at all :)

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Thing is though, handbrake linkage is around 80mm wider than Rover one, so the handbrake inner cable is now 80mm too short :confused:. I had a look at the clevis at the front end of the cable and discovered that it was screwed onto a short threaded piece. I found a short piece of threaded bar the right size and a connector, then put the clevis back and yes, it works

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I have bought a pipe flaring kit that actually works and made up the brake pipes, leaving a flexible piece to connect to the original pipework on the car.

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I torqued up the bolts on the plate which held the front mount in and managed to crush the crossmember :eek:, twisting the plate at the same time. I then had to make up a puller to get it back to original, then set about it with some panel beating hammers. This was quite a set back to be honest, but it appears that most of this crossmember is made out of an old Chieftan Tank, but the small bit at the front, up to the tunnel is made out of wax :mad:

I took the bolts out and using studs instead managed to get a nut each side of the metal top and bottom, so 4 nuts per side to give it some support. I then used a bit of the 5mm box section to remake the plate and put it all back together. That should do it.

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Now to try and stop the front of the diff from twist upwards under acceleration, I drilled a couple of 18mm holes into the suspension crossmember. Then cut two short lengths of 18mm OD steel tube and tapped them in. Got them just right and had them welded into place.

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These will hold two 14mm studs which can be adjusted for length by just doing up/undoing the nuts.

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Back in the car, with a couple of struts I made from some 12mm studding and 15mm tube it is all very solid :)

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Just need to get it all adjusted up, then tighten everything up and hope it works.

Oh, and I added a short piece of 10 x 20mm box section at each side on the front, to complete the cage. I couldn't get them both in same place so they are staggered, but I don't think that will be coming out of there in a hurry - so happy with that.

Richard

PS new propshaft and shortened half shafts have arrived back, so next job is to fit them and hope I have the measurements correct - what could possible go wrong ? :)
 
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quattro

Well-Known Member
The propshaft needed to be 30cm longer than the manual one (I have a spare manual prop), and after discussions with the drive shaft specialists I went for the larger tube as well. I did discuss going for a 2 piece version with the bearing mounted on the suspension cross member but they seemed to think that a one piece would do just fine.

I then got the old diff out and put the driveshafts back on, them measured from tip to tip.

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I then did the same with the new diff and found a difference of 65mm. I had measured both of the diffs earlier and found a difference of 64mm. I did read somewhere that the diffs were 38mm different and therefore to shorten them by 19mm, but my measurements meant 32mm? So here they are, a 3" prop and two 32mm shortened driveshafts, ready to fit.

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Prop bolted straight on, but I couldn't get the bolts to go in from the back whatever I tried. I did think of removing the input flange, but decided against that and just put them in back to front.

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Then got everything torqued up and refitted the exhaust, which was more difficult then it sounds. I had to remove one of the struts to get it in and still had to wrestle it for around half an hour. Still, it's in now, but the exhaust is a different shape than I remember, and the strut will have to go straight through the silencer :oops: There's a little problem for later :)

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I have managed to get a brake proportioning valve and after a brief search under the front carpets, I found an existing hole in the centre tunnel, possibly something to do with the old auto box or something the previous owner had fitted. I made up a washer to suit, bonded it in and fitted the valve there.

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I have removed the brake pipe from the adapter under the servo to the joiner in the centre tunnel, and am in the process of plumbing it all in.

Not much more to do now :)

Richard
 

mrtask

Well-Known Member
Are you going to have to delete the middle exhaust box to enable you to fit that strut as you had planned? Sorry to be dim, but what are those struts for, exactly? What is the silver reflective material you lined t he underside of the tunnel with, and what did you attach it with? Apologies if I already asked you that, I've forgotten.
 

quattro

Well-Known Member
Not quite sure what to do with the exhaust, it's under ponderance now :)

If you look at the diff from the front, the engine turns it clockwise, so if it gets any resistance (e.g. inertia from the weight of the car) the diff will tend to try and turn clockwise, putting force on the mountings. Rover put a stay bar from the chassis across to the diff to relieve this. I still have to sort that bit.

Also, because (looking from the right hand side of the car) the diff turns the wheels in a clockwise direction, the diff itself will try to turn anti-clockwise, and the more resistance, the greater the force. Rover sorted this by fitting an extension to the diff and mounting the front of it onto a rubber mount. This rubber mount is upside down if it was taking the weight of the diff, so it's there to relieve the upward force of the front of the diff. The front of the jag diff is a lot heavier than the Rover one, so I have put the rubber mount right side up to take the weight. Also the Jag diff is much shorter so will produce even more upward force (the lever is shorter) and there is more power from the Engine so producing even more :oops:. The struts are there to control this upward force. I hope I have explained this correctly :confused:

The shiny stuff is a heat and sound reflective self adhesive sheet, just an extra bit of noise insulation.

Richard
 

quattro

Well-Known Member
I promise to get some piccys soon :)

Sparky fired up last night for the first time in 15 months, took just 3 seconds on the starter to burst into life. I let him warm up then carefully drove outside and up and down the car park. I didn't get above 15 mph, just wanted to try him out with the new diff. All seemed smooth and tight, awesome feeling :)

Went to get a camera so I could take a short video from the driving seat (just leaving the camera on the dash, not holding it :p). Just as I got back into the car, the AFR went skyward, the fuel pressure dropped to 9 PSI and the engine conked out.

Previously, I had drilled out the normal 8mm feed from the sender unit to 13mm then cut a M14/1 thread into it, and screwed in one of these with a viton seal.

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Cut the top off just above the thread, then refit the standard Rover filter and spring. Apparently the inline high pressure fuel pumps need a 12mm feed with a filter, hence the fitting. Blew it all out with an airline and checked there was no debris in there. 12mm hose is around 40cm long, straight to the pump.

Now, since the event, I have checked nothing has smacked the pump, put some more petrol in, wired the pump straight across the battery and had a good look underneath - as much as I could as he's down on the ground now.

Nothing, the pump makes a whirring noise but I get no fuel pressure and he won't start.

The only things I can think of are, the pressure relief valve on the EFI is jammed wide open so I am pumping the fuel straight back into the tank and not creating any pressure, but I would not have thought this was likely, or the brand new £50 pump is FUBAR.

Any ideas anyone? I am going to try hitt... ermm... tapping it with a hammer to see if that works. I hate draining fuel tanks, so would rather not have to do this.

Richard

EDIT - just removed the return pipe from the fuel rail, turned the ignition on and the pump whirred but no fuel came out :confused:. So it's not the pressure relief valve.
 
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corazon

Well-Known Member
So no fuel leaks underneath anywhere?
Main Suspect, Pump
It's gotta be either pump (mechanical or electrical issue), leak, or a blockage I would have thought.
Did you leave the tank fairly full? 15 months is probably long enough to turn to varnish..
It's the original tank with an additional baffle isn't it? But inline not in-tank pump?
You blanked the reserve feed with your newly adapted sender?
Have you tried disconnecting the fuel line after the pump but before the rail and giving it power?
If anything that's a nice relaxing, clean way to drain the tank should it come to it..unless it's failed completely ;)
Do you have or can you borrow a diagnostic fuel pressure gauge to check what the rail is getting?
Jim
 

cobraboy

Well-Known Member
It'll be Sparky having an identity crisis and putting his foot down.
I can hear the grumbling - ' I was kind of alright with the funny stuff I have to ingest up front, but now He's gone and shoved a Jaguar rear end up my rear end and I'm just not having it' ;)
 

quattro

Well-Known Member
So no fuel leaks underneath anywhere?
Main Suspect, Pump
It's gotta be either pump (mechanical or electrical issue), leak, or a blockage I would have thought.
Did you leave the tank fairly full? 15 months is probably long enough to turn to varnish..
It's the original tank with an additional baffle isn't it? But inline not in-tank pump?
You blanked the reserve feed with your newly adapted sender?
Have you tried disconnecting the fuel line after the pump but before the rail and giving it power?
If anything that's a nice relaxing, clean way to drain the tank should it come to it..unless it's failed completely ;)
Do you have or can you borrow a diagnostic fuel pressure gauge to check what the rail is getting?
Jim
No leaks at all Jim

Tank was empty, removed in fact as I welded up the hole in the top where the in-tank pump used to be - so not even fumes in there.

No additional baffles, it worked fine with the in-tank pump except that I had to make a long and rather convoluted bracket to put the body of the pump at the bottom of the tank. This made it difficult to seal as I suspect it swayed about a bit in motion, making the boot smell of petrol.

Feed to new in-line pump is from the original reserve outlet but now 12mm, and the return is the the original 8mm outlet - well inlet now :)

Good idea with the tank emptying, I'll give that a go tomorrow.

I have two extra gauges on the dash, a Lambda gauge and a fuel pressure gauge taking its feed from the rail.

Fairly certain now that the pump has stopped working so that's coming out tomorrow if I get time.

It'll be Sparky having an identity crisis and putting his foot down.
I can hear the grumbling - ' I was kind of alright with the funny stuff I have to ingest up front, but now He's gone and shoved a Jaguar rear end up my rear end and I'm just not having it' ;)
Oh I don't think so Mark :) , he really did seem to be enjoying it until the pump died

Richard
 
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quattro

Well-Known Member
All apart again :confused: and I smell of petrol.

This is the fitting for the 12mm feed

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The fuel I drained out from the tank looked like this ?

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The petrol in the 1L squeezy bottle was a bit that was left, so it had changed colour from just about see through to a nice shade of brown. This was a bit confusing so I thought I would test the 12mm ID fuel hose, along with other things, to try and found out why this was happening. I cut a new piece of hose, blanked off the end then stuck a 12mm filter in the top. Put some petrol in it and left it half an hour. It went brown.

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The hose in contact with the petrol in the above piccy is only about 1/2" long, but on the car it's 16" long. I am going to leave it over the weekend to see if any bits come off it, but this does look like the culprit.

Serves me right for buying from ebay - "Cotton Braided Rubber Fuel Hose for Unleaded Petrol / Diesel Oil, Line Pipe UK"

So, that is going to cost me a new hose from somewhere else, and a new pump :mad:

Richard
 

cobraboy

Well-Known Member
If you are staying with rubber and not going stainless braided with Teflon liner then Gates fuel hose is Ethanol safe. They do a high pressure hose for EFI in 8 or 10mm.
The rubber hose is two part with reinforcing and oddly the outer skin is not Ethanol safe, so you don't want any leaks.
 
That's tough, Richard - for that to happen on so short a timescale is totally bizarre - talk about 'not fit for purpose'.
I wonder how many other poor sods are having recurring problems after fitting this stuff.
I checked the eBay listing and it looks fine, I'd have bought it.:oops:
 

arthuy

Well-Known Member
Seems to be problems with modern petrol.

I had some hose dissolve, replaced at that hose cracked and weeped on the outside of the curves. Third time lucky.
 
I'm using Esso petrol where possible as an engineer friend said it doesn't have ethanol in it. He says Shell only has 5% ethanol. Not sure how to check the accuracy of his findings but so far my V8 seems ok. Something has destroyed the primer bulb on my (Chinese) post-hole borer mind you, and I think that petrol was Murco. The pipe to the carburettor seems to be rotting too, and it's only 2 years old. I'm not going to risk that fuel in the car!
 

quattro

Well-Known Member
I am going to get some Esso Supreme+ tomorrow and do the filter test with that.

It does seem to point towards ethanol and BP says BP Ultimate contains no ethanol, but the pdf is 10 years old, Shell say it might, but they don't seem sure, and Esso says, "Esso super unleaded petrol (Synergy Supreme+ Unleaded 97) is ethanol free (except in Devon, Cornwall, the Teesside area and Scotland). We would therefore advise anyone who has concerns about the presence of ethanol in petrol to use Synergy Supreme+ – providing they do not fill up in Devon or Cornwall, the Teesside area or Scotland."

?:confused:?
 

quattro

Well-Known Member
I asked BP - "I drive a classic car. Could you tell me the ethanol content of you ultimate petrol please? Richard"

They replied

"Dear Richard,

Thank you for your email.

Fuel suppliers have been required to increase the quantity of biofuels in their transport fuels since 2008 to comply with the government’s Renewable Transport Fuel Obligation; as a result bioethanol has been added to petrol products in the UK since that time.

Today, bioethanol is present in nearly all regular unleaded 95 octane petrols being sold by fuel suppliers in the UK and can also be present in the UK’s higher octane petrols.

The inclusion of bioethanol in our supply chain is subject to regulatory and commercial influences and regrettably we cannot give you categorical assurances as to its absence or presence in BP petrol products at specific locations. But we can confirm that currently BP regular unleaded and BP Ultimate unleaded do not contain more than 5% bioethanol.

Hope it helps."

Just a number would help, but there you go. BP Ultimate is up to 5% ethanol.

Richard
 
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