Rear springs and shocks set-up.

Greetings fellow Forumites,
Just a quick question........
I have recently had the rear bushes done, fitted a pair of GAZ adjustable shocks and finally a pair of up-rated springs.
My problem is this:
The rear suspension is now too @&$*(! firm. Every little bump or divvet on the road is translating through the suspension as a God-awful thump/clunk.
Which leads to my question:
How should the shocks be adjusted to compensate for the firmer springs? Should they be slackened off or cranked up?? Has anyone got a similar set-up??
All replies are much appreciated.

RT.
 
Hello RT,

My Rover is fitted with uprated springs and Koni shocks. At the rear I run the shocks around the middle of the adjustment range, so the front setup is much stiffer than the rear. I find this works much better than having the rear shocks adjusted too hard. Thump bump, ruined shock rubbers in just a matter of weeks and less than a satisfactory feeling of adhesion being how I would describe the situation when set too hard.

Chris York will give you a definitive answer, but from my experience, a tad softer works better, but not to the original spec as that is just too soft.

Ron.
 
the Gaz shocks have adjustment for both bump and rebound I think? Bump will be at the top of the shock absorber, rebound at the bottom. You should be able to get a scew driver on both with the springs in situ. If not then support the rear of the body and jack under the de dion elbow (or close by) so that you can move the suspension up and down relative to the body. Then vary the suspension compression until you can reach the adjusters through the spring.

The principle of setting up a shock absorber is simple, pactice a little more difficult. If you had a coil spring without any shock absorber then you would be able to get the rear of the car to bounce on its own for ages. I've tried this with mine, whilst moving the car during rear end work. The effect is quite comical, like sitting on a childrens see saw! So imagine putting a sudden push up onto the rear suspension. Without a shock absorber the spring wil tend to push the car up beyond the final static position. Then the car will fall back, and again the spring will allow the car to go beyond the static position in the downward direction. And so on through quite a few cycles! You sometimes see a car on the road with a dead shock absorber and the wheel "patters" between the body and the road, sometimes leaving the road altogether!

The objective of the shock absorber is to make this motion "sticky" so that the car goes only a little beyond the static position and falls back exactly to it. If you adjust the shock absorber too tight then it acts as a rigid strut and you feel every imperfection in the road. Effectively the only spring you have is the tyre! Too slack and you get back towards the Zebedee situation. In Zebedee mode you don't get consistant grip from the tyre, sometimes none at all, so traction and cornering both suffer badly.

A rule of thumb is that if you deliver the body a shock load downwards - lean on it suddenly with your full weight - the body should spring back to just beyond the static position and then settle back down directly to static with no further movement. The initial rise of the body is the rebound motion, the subsequent fall bump (you've effectively done the exact opposite of what the road does to the car - it pushes from unserneath, you've pushed from above).

If you are driving the car then the slack shock absorber situation will allow the car to float or wallow over bumps. This is best felt by taking a long undulation in the road at speed. If the shocks are too loose it feels like a fair ground ride, the car lunges upwards, hangs for a second and then plunges down, perhaps hitting the bump stops. Tthe tight shock absorber situation gives a jiggly ride where you feel evey minor imperfection. Note that with soft springs the action is slow, with stiff springs the action is much faster but still discernable.

So how would I go about it? Well it is easy to make an initial setting of rebound damping. Go back to the sudden heavy lean onto the rear of the car. Adjust the rebound until the car only just goes beyond the static position on the first bounce back. That will do to start with. Then onto bump adjustment. I suggest you set the damper at nearly maximum and drive the car. Too jiggly? Back it off until the car becomes acceptably comfortable. Then go out and find that long undulation. Any wallowing? If so tighten up a tad. This process is only sort of scientific. At the end of the day you are looking for a compromise with which you are happy.

Once you have reached your intial compromise, then you can start using the car more and can judge whether you were right. Probably the best test of the rebound setting is driving through pot holes. If it is too slack you will tend to get a boing effect as the wheel accelerates enthusiastically into the hole. If you start to feel the car is too stiff or too sloppy I'd be inclined to adjust both bump and rebound together by the same amount from here on. Only adjust one alone if you are sure there is a specific problem.

Happy playing!

Chris
 
Thanks for the prompt replies Gents.

Chris: Thankyou for the advice. My GAZ shocks appear to only have the one adjusting knob, a knurled wheel marked with +/-. This is at the bottom of the shock (unless I have them in upside -down!!!!!! :shock: ). There is also an Allen key fitting on the top of the peg, behind the rear seats, would this be an adjuster???
There were no instructions with the shocks when purchased. They were obtained from the UK and shipped to Australia. They are supposedly the ones that have been specially resleeved to suit the Rover P6.

RT.
 
Rover-tragic. said:
There is also an Allen key fitting on the top of the peg, behind the rear seats, would this be an adjuster???
RT.

If the allen key fitting is on the top of the stud, going down into it, this is to hold the stud when doing the nuts up.

Richard
 
Rover-tragic. said:
Greetings fellow Forumites,
The rear suspension is now too @&$*(! firm. Every little bump or divvet on the road is translating through the suspension as a God-awful thump/clunk.
Which leads to my question:
How should the shocks be adjusted to compensate for the firmer springs? Should they be slackened off or cranked up?? Has anyone got a similar set-up??
All replies are much appreciated.

RT.


I am trying to remember my mechanical theory - if the springs are too stiff to start with then adusting the shocks may not have very much effect? In simple terms, the shocks are dampers that stop the spings oscillating or bouncing (as fully Chris explains above). If the amount of force reuqired to compress the spings is very high then any force less than this will tend to be transmitted up through the car - leading to the thumps that you describe.

Do you have any spec. or info on the springs themselves? If you didn't get any insytuctions with the shocks, is there a part number on the shocks or the box they came in that might allow you get some info off the Internet?
 
It's mostly the shocks that control the harshness of the ride, sounds like the ones you have are just single adjustment, I would simply set them to fully soft and see how it feels,then you can play with the settings if you want them stiffer.

No hard and fast rules, it's down to personal preference. I had a set of spax adjustables on an old chevette years ago, and even on full soft I thought they were too stiff, turned right up they were practically solid !
 
I've fitted AVO adjustable shock to my car along with some stiffer, progressive rate rear springs which sounds like a similar set up to the KONI or GAZ ones mentioned above. There's is just one dial to adjust the damping, so compression and rebound are tied together. Basically there's a compression and rebound shim stack on each side of the piston which give maximum damping and the adjuster controls the flow of a bypass valve which, when wound out, gives less damping.

Ininially I wound the adjusters to near maximum damping thinking I'd enjoy a sporty ride, but actually it just made the car nervous, jiggly and no fun to drive at all. I kept it like that for most of last year until I needed to so some work on the front suspension bushes. When I rebuilt the front end I temporarily put the old standard shocks on for the test drive and noticed how supple the front end ride was. Quite perculiar to drive though as the back end was still very stiff and this made the car rock from side to side each time the rear wheel hit a bump. Basically, the bump force was pushing the rear wheel up, but compressing the front suspension diagonally opposite.

Once back, I wound the rear dampers to minimum and bounced the car by leaning on the rear wing. There was almost no damping what so ever, so I added one click at a time until it just kept the bounce in check and went on a test drive. This time the car glided down the road but still felt a bit floaty so I added 2 more clicks and it's now about spot on with 8 clicks from minimum out of 18.

I'd aggree with Chris and recommend using the static bounce and test drive method starting at the rear first with the fronts set on or close to minimum, then set the fronts afterwards. I doubt you'll get it right first time but you'll have a good bench mark to start from.
 
Thanks again all for the considerate replies.

Paul:
I'd aggree with Chris and recommend using the static bounce and test drive method starting at the rear first with the fronts set on or close to minimum, then set the fronts afterwards. I doubt you'll get it right first time but you'll have a good bench mark to start from.

At the moment I only have the rebuilt set-up at the rear. The front has always been solid as a rock, with only the occasional "knuckle crack" on absolute full lock. Winston feels genuinely tight at the front end in both steering and braking.
I will attempt the slack off to minimum approach and then work up from there. I just hope that the springs are not too firm. They are King springs, manufactured and made in Australia, and apparently custom rated for the P6.

RT.
 
Evening All,
An interesting development.........

Today I adjusted the shocks to there minimum and conducted the body-weight test on each side.
The driver's side has shown a marked difference in the compression and in the return to static, but the off-side doesn't appear to have made any difference at all. It is still too firm and shows virtually no movement at all. :(

Any thoughts??

RT.
 
I would suggest that either the suspension is binding in some way, or the shocker adjustment isn't working on that side. Could try taking the shocker out to show if rest of suspension is ok.
 
Hi all,
Further to this thread I have managed to free up the driver's side suspension. It appears to be working OK, barring a little adjustment.
The passenger side, however, is a different kettle of sturgeon.
It is still very firm and creates a hell of a lot of bumps and rattles. I have taken the shockie out and through rudimentary tests it appears to be working OK.
As far as the suspension "binding", where would this be occuring? Has anyone had any similar issues?
It's moments like this that I wish I had my own hoist!!!!

RT.
 
It sounds like the adjuster on your passenger side shock (are you LHD? I can't remember where you hail from) has a non functional adjuster that is stuck on full hard, whatever might be happening with the knob/nut/screw on the outside! I think it is time to have a chat with the supplier.

Chris
 
With the shock absorber disconnected the car should bob up and down very easily if you push down on the rear and let go - does it do that ?

This will at least indicate if the shock is a problem or a stiff joint.
 
keanej said:
With the shock absorber disconnected the car should bob up and down very easily if you push down on the rear and let go - does it do that ?

This will at least indicate if the shock is a problem or a stiff joint.

You can easily do this by unscrewing the four little bolts on the shock mount plate on the trailing arm. No need to even jack the car up for that.
 
Sounds like the springs you've fitted are too firm, even if the shocks needed re-setting. The setup that has worked so well for Jaguar in terms of giving a smooth ride AND tight handling tends to be pretty soft springing combined with quite hard shock absorbers...
 
DaveHerns said:
What was Colin Chapman's theory on springs and dampers ?

Remember, he also had weight on his side. In theory at least, the lighter the car the nicer its ride and handling ought to be - which is why a well-sorted Lotus or Caterham or whatever can handle like a flea yet also ride really nicely.
 
Rover-tragic. said:
Greetings fellow Forumites,
Just a quick question........
I have recently had the rear bushes done, fitted a pair of GAZ adjustable shocks and finally a pair of up-rated springs.
My problem is this:
The rear suspension is now too @&$*(! firm. Every little bump or divvet on the road is translating through the suspension as a God-awful thump/clunk.
Which leads to my question:
How should the shocks be adjusted to compensate for the firmer springs? Should they be slackened off or cranked up?? Has anyone got a similar set-up??
All replies are much appreciated.

RT.

I have GAZ dampers and currently a mixture of uprated + lowered front springs and standard rear springs fitted to my project rover. I have always had the dampers set on minimum mostly as I've been playing with the suspension geometry and have wanted to get it to move through as much of it's travel while I can visibly see it as possible before I start actually setting it up to put it on the road. Only in the past few weeks have I actually started twiddling the adjuster knobs on the rear suspension.

The rear GAZ dampers I have (I guess you will have the same?) have 38 clicks soft-hard. On fully soft with standard rear springs, I could push the back end down about 3" just by leaning on it, and if I started bouncing it I could get the wheels off the ground. I did have uprated + lowered springs on the rear but since adding the extra weight to the axle I found it sat too low so had to put the originals back in. With the uprated springs fitted, and the GAZ dampers on soft, it felt OK, I could bounce the rear 3"-4" and it would rise and immediately settle when let go, which I felt was about right to start with.

Recently I set the rear adjusters exactly half way, and found the rear completely solid, it felt there was more give in the tyres than the suspension. I then wound them back to 10 clicks from soft, and the rear is still a little too firm, with about 2"-3" of bounce. Using that as a guide, I will probably be setting the front to something near 5 clicks from soft with the uprated springs, and probably the same on the rear when I get round to getting a new pair of uprated springs made for me to get the ride height I want.

Rover-tragic. said:
Hi all,
Further to this thread I have managed to free up the driver's side suspension. It appears to be working OK, barring a little adjustment.
The passenger side, however, is a different kettle of sturgeon.
It is still very firm and creates a hell of a lot of bumps and rattles. I have taken the shockie out and through rudimentary tests it appears to be working OK.
As far as the suspension "binding", where would this be occuring? Has anyone had any similar issues?
It's moments like this that I wish I had my own hoist!!!!

RT.

What are the specs of the springs you have fitted? If they're rated too high I would have thought you would have very little suspension movement to start with. With the dampers removed/ disconnected, how much can you push the car down by with your own weight and does it change with the dampers refitted? Have you tried swapping springs or dampers from side to side to see if the problem goes to the other side? Have you tried slackening off all the lower and upper link bushes and is the de dion tube sliding freely? Are your springs also lowered and are they sitting on the bumpstops? I'd try those and see what happens, even better if you can raise the rear on some ramps and have a helper who can bounce it while you lay underneath and have a good look as the suspension is operating.
 
EccentricRichard said:
DaveHerns said:
What was Colin Chapman's theory on springs and dampers ?

Remember, he also had weight on his side. In theory at least, the lighter the car the nicer its ride and handling ought to be - which is why a well-sorted Lotus or Caterham or whatever can handle like a flea yet also ride really nicely.

Generally, a heavier car will ride better. This is because, on a heavy car, the percentage change of the weight of the car is smaller between fully laden and empty. ie 4/5 passengers and luggage weighs much the same, whatever size the car is. The springs and dampers have a much smaller range of weights to deal with so can be optimised for a better ride quality without being too soft to carry a load.
 
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