Non starting 3500S - What have I done?

South Gippy Rover

South Gippy Rover

Active Member
Hi All,

I have owned my 3500S for a couple of months now.
It always started (past tense) first time (not drivable due to brakes and clutch) but I appear to have now broken it.
It has an after market electric fuel pump and electronic ignition.
I now have no spark at the plugs and no fuel from the pump.

The only thing I can think of that I have done was when I was refitting the clutch master cylinder.
The choke cable outer sheath is bare metal and not plastic coated.

IMG_3089.JPG
When working on the clutch master I moved the cable to one side and it made contact with the small electrical box on the right hand side of the engine bay (see photos). There were sparks!

IMG_3088.JPG
Apologies, but I am not sure of the name or function of the small electrical box.
(In the last photo I have put a length of plastic tubing over the choke cable where it passes close to the electrical connections to stop it happening again).

IMG_3068.JPG
My questions are:
What is the name and function of the electrical box.
How do I test it to see if I have fried it.
Would it explain the lack of fuel and spark?
I am yet to test if there is any power to the fuel pump.

Many thanks for your wisdom.

Paul.
 
ButterFingers said:
I would check the fuse box inside the glovbox first...
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply.
My fuse box in the passenger compartment has been upgraded to blade fuses and they all appear intact.
Are there any other fuses hidden elsewhere?
Forgot to say in the first post is that it turns over but does not fire.
 
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That small electrical box that you describe is a voltage regulator of sorts and has points inside, could have fused them together when
you shorted out on the choke cable? just a guess, but worth checking out.
An auto electrician would test it for you. There are mobile auto electricians in the yellow pages..
Peter
 
Hi Paul,

The small electrical box that is in your photos is the starter relay. When you turn your ignition key and close the starting circuit, the relay closes allowing the ballast resistor to be bypassed. Thus the coil receives full voltage for starting. Once the engine catches and you allow the key to move back to the normal running position, the relay opens, allowing the coil to again receive a reduced applied voltage.
There are many Lucas relays that look very similar, so if you need to replace yours, it must be one with the identical number. Otherwise it will not work as intended.

Ron.
 
Hi Guys,
I have tested the starter relay as per the workshop manual and it works great.
I also cleaned up the contact points inside.
However, my battery is now officially dead, despite being kept on a trickle charge.
I suspect (hope) that the battery is the cause of my non starting as it was probably on its last legs.
I will purchase a new one tomorrow and let you know.
Fingers crossed.
Paul.
 
Hi all,
It only took me two weeks to buy a new battery.
Fitted it today and still the same. However, I think I have located the problem to the coil.
The primary resistance between positive and negative is 2 ohms.
Secondary resistance between positive and the HV outlet reads open circuit.
Also, with the ignition on, I have 12 volts at both the positive and negative terminals. Should this be the case?

Still have not looked at the electronic fuel pump and the lack of fuel on cranking. I will investigate this once I have a spark.

Paul.
 
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Hi all,
Quick update.
I have replaced the coil and still nothing.
I have discovered that I have no power to my Lumenition ignition module or my electronic fuel pump which come off the same supply wire.
Time to get the wiring diagrams out. :eek:
Paul.
 
Long shot but with an electric fuel pump you should have a safety switch. Has this got caught and tripped? Had that once on my rover 800.
 
Hi Cafcpete,
I'm not sure.
Any idea what it looks like or where it would be located?
I couldn't find any inline fuses but I am yet to rummage behind the dash and centre console.

The supply wire is spliced into a green wire from the wiring harness just above the fuse box behind the passenger glovebox. (The red wire in the photo).

IMG_3269.PNG

I'm tempted to temporarily wire it directly to one of the fuse box outlets to see what happens when I turn the key.
Unfortunately, I suspect the circuit order of my nicely wired updated fuse box does not match the original circuit order as the positions of the fuses do not match those in the book.
 
They all look a little different, but try a google image search for inertia switch and you will get the idea. If you can't find one, then fit one.

The wiring looks a bit of a mess with all the naff blue connectors (the ones which you clamp together and they are meant to pierce the insulation of the joined wires.)

I would be tempted to disconnect the bullet connector were the red then little green joins the green and see if its live on the main green....
 
What prefix is your car? Are any other electrical items not working, like indicators or break lights etc.
 
Hi Pete,
Both the chassis and engine have a 'D' suffix. Build date Jan 1975.
I had a thorough search of the engine bay and under the dash, behind the glove boxes etc, and can find no inertia switch.
I will add it to my expanding shopping list. Sounds like a sensible option.
The car does have an alarm fitted but I have no instructions for it, just 2 wireless key fobs. I am hoping that there is not an immobilizer activated somewhere that I am unaware of.
I have no reason to suspect it is an immobilizer issue as I have done nothing to upset the alarm (I hope!).

Just to go back a step as you were spot on with your last post!
I have had the car approx 3 months. From day 1 the indicators and radio have never worked. The hazard lights have always worked and swapping the flasher units around for the indicators and hazards made no difference.
I never investigated any further than those items not working.
However, today I was more thorough.
The reverse lights, brake lights and screen wash do not work (I am not sure if they ever worked since I got the car).
The indicators still do not work.

Interestingly, all are linked on the same green wire circuit on the wiring diagram from which the supply for the fuel pump and ignition module are spliced into.
Looking at the wiring diagram below I can find 2 possible locations (highlighted in red) where a single green is split into 2 separate green wires via a connector.
Please feel free to correct me if i am wrong or have missed something. Wiring diagrams are not my strong point.
Wiring diagram.jpg

I can hopefully see a distant light at the end of the tunnel which will involve taking a new fused supply for fuel pump and ignition coil, incorporating a new inertia switch for the fuel pump and hopefully finding the issue with the green circuit, starting at the fuse box. Unfortunately, my wiring loom looks like a plate of multi coloured spaghetti.

I did find a couple of items in the wiring under the drivers side glove box which I hope someone can help me identify.
The black/silver one is a button which I have pressed numerous times but still have no idea what it does or where the wires go.
They may be linked to the alarm. Any suggestions appreciated.

IMG_3279.JPG IMG_3278.JPG

Thanks again for your assistance.

Paul.
 
Spark's electrical system was a mess when I bought him, in fact that is why he is called, "Sparky."

My inertia switch is in the boot. It's on the left on the white bracket. The relay on the right is the main fuel pump relay. This is for the EFI so you won't have the relay. The inertia switch just turns itself off if you have a bump, so if you're upside down in a ditch with broken fuel pipes or whatever, the pump isn't pumping fuel all over you. There is a red button on top which pops out if you get hit. To reset it, just push it back in.



As cafcpete says, those naff little blue connectors often known as scotch blocks will cause problems, and my advice would be to get rid of them. Do you wish to keep the immobiliser/alarm?

The electrical box, I believe is a standard 6RA relay. Think of it as a switch which is turned on by you turning the ignition switch against the spring. So when you turn the switch, it turns on the relay, which in turn fires another relay in the starter motor. This then engages the starter motor and connects it straight to the battery. When the starter is engage and spinning, there is a 12V supply from the starter, which goes to the coil giving it 12V instead of the lower voltage from the ballast resistor.

When you turn the ignition on, so the red lights are on the dash, is the fuel pump working? and do you have power to the coil?

Richard
 
Hi Guys,

Thanks for your help.
With the ignition on, yes I have the red lights illuminated on the dash.
The fuel pump does not work. No power supply.
Yes I do have power to the coil.

Unfortunately, due to work and family commitments I will have limited time over the next couple of weeks to play with the car. :(
However, hopefully I will get plenty of time afterwards.:)

Thanks again,

Paul.
 
Well, if the fuel pump isn't working, that's a good place to start. Try to trace the wire back to where it starts. Mine was connected to the heated rear windscreen switch and the electric fan was also connected into the same bit of the loom. It was ok until I put the heated rear screen on one muggy day and then got stuck in traffic. The fan kicked in and the fuse box melted :eek:

So, turn the ignition on and check the pump with a voltmeter, if you have 12V or more then check the earth on the pump. If you have nothing, turn the ignition off (no sense leaving it for too long) and follow the wire back to the next connection, e.g. back of the rear screen switch, hidden switch somewhere, or the fuse box, wherever it goes. Then turn the ignition on again and check for voltage there. If it's the fuse box, check the fuse, and keep going until you find some power somewhere. A loose connection should be fairly obvious.

Richard
 
Success!!!
I have found the culprit for my non starting.
Today was my first chance to work on the car in over 2 months.
There was a blown 10 amp fuse in the circuit under the dash. The circuit supplies both the electronic fuel pump and electronic ignition.
I drove her for the first time as well, all of 5 metres to the front of the shed and then reversed her back again.
Now to tackle the lack of brakes with my new found enthusiasm!
:):):)
 
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