My '72 P6 V8 is back in use on UK roads and once again wearing its silver on black 'K' plates!

[mrtask]

Re: My extensive '72 3500 restoration project - Forum users migh

Photos to follow (check out my revised photo diary as of Sunday the 15th); I just wanted to bump this boring old thread back to the top of the pile, because I think it is time to celebrate; yesterday the LAST bit of welding on my Base Unit was completed. Yipee! The chassis stiffening plates have been affixed to the front chassis rails on both sides, I've finished hand-painting the underside in grey primer, now the bodyshell awaits a lick or two of paint on the underside. I'm now lavishing my attention on the engine bay, which needs to be sanded smooth in anticipation of a few coats of shiny (yep, shiny, not semi-matte) black paint. The suspension components all need their second coat of black paint, but I'm not far from beginning to bolt it all back together. This project has taken me far too long, but even if it does only progress in fits and starts, it is most definitely progressing. I hope to finally take delivery of some shorter stiffer springs and uprated front rool bar in the next week or so, leaving only the new set of adjustable shock absorbers to be accounted for... I'm really excited at the prospect of commencing the build-up.

 

[mrtask]

Re: My extensive '72 3500 restoration project - Forum users migh

I've only just figured out how to insert a photo on this forum... and I call myself a web designer!? Doh!
All credit to Classic Wheels Berlin for the panelcrafting
Slow but steady progress...

 

[mrtask]

Re: My extensive '72 3500 restoration project - Forum users migh

Spent the afternoon sanding the engine bay

Trying to decide if I should cut off the flange along the inside edge of the front chassis rails and seam weld it, or hammer the flange downwards, to give myself more room for tubular exhaust headers.

 

[chrisyork]

Re: My extensive '72 3500 restoration project - Forum users migh

Correct question!!! For my money cut and seam weld.

While you've got your thinking cap on, I missed out the radiator cross-member altogether. In my engineering opinion it doesn't contribute to the strength of the shell - both its shape and the bolted fixing ensure this - the real strength is the welded in cross-member under the engine. The win that results is a double wammy, you lose some weight in an important location, plus you create space for oil coolers etc. A jag V12 E Type one sits beautifully just there angled back at 45 degree's. They're available off the shelf too! What I can't figure out is why Rover put it in in the first place. It's true that the original Rover rad tends to slump and settle onto this cross-member, but that seems to be a condemnation of the design of the rad! Could it be it was only ever there to allow the car to be tied down in transport and for towing?! Certainly NADA's used this to tie the car down on a ship!

Solution to the rad is to get a proper aluminium rad made up to modern standards. Classeparts do one, but I'm sure any decent radiator shop could make one. I also shifted the transmission cooler (mine's an auto) out of the rad and fitted a pair of baby rads in series under the headlamp pressing each side. The airflow goes up through the holes in the bottom of this pressing into the engine bay behind the headlamps. But you need my modded undertray to do this - graft in the end sections from a 4 cylinder undertray and create grilles each side of the main V8 scoop.

Chris

 

[mrtask]

Re: My extensive '72 3500 restoration project - Forum users migh

Primed the engine bay and sealed the seams with polyurethane sealant, hope to get a coat of spray filler on tomorrow, and after flat sanding will give it two coats of satin black next weekend.

 

[mrtask]

Re: My extensive '72 3500 restoration project - Forum users migh

Here's a photo I found a while back on an Australian Rover Club website, the owner has concealed the two recesses in the front wings with removable covers. I hope to get my engine bay looking as tidy as that. I have a different grille treatment in mind.

Here's a bit of photoshop fun. I've changed the colour from faded Burgundy to more like the dark blue I would like to be able to afford to respray my car in! I've altered the ride height at the back end, in the original photo the car was sitting too high and the entire rear wheel was visible. Now the top edge of the rear wheel is concealed behind the wing panel. I very much hope to buy these wheels and tyres shortly, as soon as I can afford 'em. The wheels are 18" diameter Boyd Coddingtons wearing 40 profile Yokohama Porada Spec IIs, and they're going to be a very tight fit in the rear arches, I expect I'll have to make some adjustments to squeeze them in. I won't be running NADA bumpers, I might yet go for a smooth bumperless look, don't know if I'm brave enough. I think I'm getting ahead of myself a bit. I've a lot to do before my ride looks anything like this!

 

[mrtask]

Re: My extensive '72 3500 restoration project - Forum users migh

Here's a snapshot of the donor vehicle engine bay. Didn't want to turn over this afternoon after a three month winter nap. I'll add some fresh fuel to the tank tommorow and see if it'll fire up.

 

[mrtask]

Re: My extensive '72 3500 restoration project - Forum users migh

Just had to bump this old thread back up top, because today I recieved my springs, shock, front anti-roll bar and new wheel bearings. It felt like Christmas opening the package after work this evening. The new anti-roll bar is seriously beefy!
Only proper to give credit where it is due, so let's hear a big "Hurrah!" for Alan at Classeparts for his support for our hobby.
My engine bay and boot were sprayed with high-build primer last week, and I've sanded out the 'wood veneer' effect on the front inner wings that was caused by brush application of the first two coats of primer! I'm going to do the engine bay in a satin black with only a low gloss, then after a final coat of gloss black on all the suspension components and a resin underseal I can finally get on with re-assembly. Last week I was sidetracked helping my mate fit the V8 out of my '72 into his '78 MG B GT, which recieved a rebuilt engine with a Viper Hurricane cam and a Holley 390 on an Offenhauser 360 manifold plus four into one 'block hugger' headers and Raptor mufflers, mated to an LT77 five speed box. Sounded very wicked tonight after we ironed out the fuel pump gremlins!
Stay tuned chaps...

 

[mrtask]

Re: My extensive '72 3500 restoration project - Forum users migh

Here's a couple of snapshots of my new shock absorbers and shorter uprated springs, plus a pic of the Base Unit masked up prior to undercoating. The bright sunlight picks out the 'boomerang' plates beefing up the front suspension mounts. The chunky front shock mounts are masked to prevent the thread being painted in a plastic coat. The five cans of undercoat in the photo turned out to be the wrong stuff; I've spent too many hours of my life removing the old bitumen-based underseal to put the same muck back on! Today in my excitement I forgot to take my camera to the garage, where my buddy Axel had put six cans of the correct plastic-based underseal on. That wasn't enough to cover the whole underside, but we'll need to turn it over to do the other wheelarches properly anyway. The dents on the floorpan will get knocked back into the right shape once the Base Unit is up on a high lift. That's what happens when you cart a bare shell from one work space to the next with a fork lift! Ooops! The plastic underseal is very thin, stinks awfully, and dries to an impressive looking waterproof skin which hardly disguises the shape of the metalwork it protects. Expensive stuff, but it looks really good. I'll have to remove a bit of overspray on the upper inner arches and then we'll be applying the satin black to the engine bay and boot. More photos to follow next weekend when the undersealing and satin black paintwork is complete...

 

[TwinPlenum3500S]

Re: My extensive '72 3500 restoration project - Forum users migh

Looks good .... good luck with the front springs. I have the same Gaz shocks and springs. Mine are 1 1/2" lower ... the front springs are a pig.

Worse still is having to take them on and off and on and off and on and off again adding and taking out the shims! I got mine right in the end .... a very trying experience though :evil:

 

[mrtask]

Re: My extensive '72 3500 restoration project - Forum users migh

Errr.... shims!? What shims? I didn't get any shims. What for and where do they go? To dial in the amount the car is lowered? Do they go at the bulkhead end of the springs? TwinPlenum, sorry mate, you've really confused me now, could you tell me more please!? Got any pics to illustrate what you mean? Thanks.

 

[chrisyork]

Re: My extensive '72 3500 restoration project - Forum users migh

Rover used shims (look like very big washers - same diameter as the springs) to pack the springs to correct free length. This was to allow for production variation in the spring manufacture. I'm speculating here, having actually done something similar at Vauxhalls at Luton, but I would expect that the factory would check that the poundage rate of the springs was within limits on a spragging machine, then measure the free length of the springs and correct to spec with the shims prior to fitting to the car. This would only approximate to a correct answer!

I would start by following this factory practice to get the free lengths the same. To get it absolutely 100% in todays world you would then start by getting hold of a set of wheel scales. They are not that hard to find or buy cos the racing boys use them to make sure they have exactly the same load on each wheel. Next set up all the wheels to the correct ride height (Measurement explained in the Rover workshop manual). This may not follow from having got the free lengths matched as there could be small varaitions in poundage between the springs. This isn't quick as each change you make affects all three of the other wheels. Nor is it easy to be sure you have it right, there is a certain amount of stiction in the suspension, so you have to bounce on all four corners of the car before each reading and you will finish up averaging several different ones! In your case you will be choosing your own ride height as you have shortened springs; and do it with the shocks either off or on softest setting. Adjustment is by removing the springs and inserting or removing shims into the spring mounts. Once you are happy with the ride heights then insert the scales under the wheels and check you have the same weight on both wheels of the same axle. Further adjustment of shims to follow! The result will be a compromise between getting the ride heights right and the axle weights right!

I would start by shimming the two front springs to exactly the same free length off the car. I would only re-shim the fronts as a last resort. You should be able to get most of the result you want by re-shimming the backs alone.

Is it important? Well getting it absolutely spot on for a road car probably isn't. You will only feel the last 25% on a dead smooth track surface. On the other hand if there is a big error then that will unbalance the car. So probably best to do the tests but approach the results with a fair degree of scepticism!

As to where to get the shims, 99% of all scrap P6's have a supply! They come in two thicknesses, from memory, around 5mm and 15mm?

Chris

 

[mrtask]

Re: My extensive '72 3500 restoration project - Forum users migh

Looks good .... good luck with the front springs. I have the same Gaz shocks and springs. Mine are 1 1/2" lower ... the front springs are a pig.

Worse still is having to take them on and off and on and off and on and off again adding and taking out the shims! I got mine right in the end .... a very trying experience though :evil:

TwinPlenum, did you measure the free length of your new springs before you fitted them? What did you specify/ask for when you ordered your springs? I haven't got as far as trying to bolt everything back together. As is visible in my photo, my springs are marked +30% -30mm. Quick conversion from cm to inches says my shocks are only 1.2" shorter. Did you get your springs from Alan at Classeparts as well as your GAZ shocks? I can't actually imagine that he made/ordered in subtly different springs for his various customers. Surely it is likelier that a small batch of springs with the identical spec was produced for you and I and whoever else is currently lowering their P6 V8. All supposition and conjecture on my part, I grant you, but seems reasonable to me. Anyway, if we have the same length springs will I not have to fit the same amount/thickness of shims as you did?
We're going to have to hook up when my ride is back on the road. I reckon I'll have to come and pay a visit to Blighty, and perhaps attend a meet/run where we could hook up... I'm feeling feisty; do you wanna drag race? Yeah, I know, finish building the car before I give it the large 'un!

 

[TwinPlenum3500S]

Re: My extensive '72 3500 restoration project - Forum users migh

The chap at Gaz is a friend of a close friend of mine. He took a front and rear spring and a front and rear shock down to Gaz in Basildon, Essex and said I ant the car lowered by 1 1/2". Gaz do all the calculations and the maths. I dont know how long Alan has been doing them, but I was under the impression my car was the first P6 he had done.

Be careful as the springs in the power steering and non power steering models vary ... power steering ones are longer on the front.

I simply bolted them on, looked at the car on the flat and repacked with original shims on the car.

Re shimming is easier said than done .... each time the shock has to come out, a shim added, wing put back on, car re-evaluated .... then again and again and again. In short an absolute BLOODY NIGHTMARE!! Rears are not too bad, front spring removal and refitment just wind me up having to recollect the experience again. Was it worth it? Car looks more attractive, hold firmer around bends, but I cannot take speed humps with any great speed and I get a bit of rubbing on the rear tyres which I still have to rectify whe cornering.

As for the shims, when you remove the springs, you will see them ..... Mask them up and write on which side they are, front or rear and how many went under each spring. My car sat pissed when I first got it, which lead me to think it was a wea spring or shock. As such I renewed them all, knew all the Gaz stuff was engineered perfectly and so fitted with no shims .... the car sat pissed again!! Shims are critical.

I personally would put the exact amount of shims back as you took off at each corner ..... assuming all new shocks and springs will mean a level car was not the case for me. All of this is assuming too, that your car sits perfectly level.

Good luck!

As for a drag race, a 200 bhp SD1 engine with a great big lump of P6 tonnage attached does not make for a quick car My car makes a lovely noise, the custom stainless exhausts and manifolds (Flowtech 0208 586 1717 ask for Paul or Terry) help it breath better, but it is not super quick off the mark. It lights its tyres up well and when rolling pulls like a train to well over 100mph on the motorway, but I have a little unmodified, stock as a rock early 1275GT mini that would kill the poor old Rover off the line.

On the other hand, seeing as you will be going 4litre plus, that is another story

I may also have to ask you a few questions in the future. I see you work on MG's. I sold my 1968 MGB Roadster about 4 years ago and frankly miss it a bit. I am seriously thinking about buying a MGB GT (Pre 1969) and putting in an injection SD1 (Single or twinplenum). I just wondered what mods are involved? Notably do the inner wings have to be cut out?

 

[mrtask]

Re: My extensive '72 3500 restoration project - Forum users migh

TwinPlenum, I can't really claim to "work on MGs", but my good mates at Classic Wheels do. Frequently. There are various ways to shoehorn a V8 into a B GT, but the simplest would be to use the exhaust manifolds from the late 'RV8' or some so-called 'Block Hugger' manifolds. The latter still require a bit of a dent to be walloped into the inner wing for clearance. It's all been covered in considerable detail on www.britishv8.org - check out the vast archive of 'How it was done' articles with loads of handy reference photos. Lots of inspirational machines there to inspect online.
Wish I'd realised the importance of those shims when I dismantled my car. Didn't make a note of which shim came from where. Hope I flung them in a box and didn't ditch 'em! Quite a while ago now, so I don't remember off hand.
I'll start out by refitting my 3.5 breathing through SUs to get the car back on the road, and build up a bigger engine with the Callaway EFi set-up separately, with a 'standalone' ECU, to transplant at a later date, as and when funds allow.
Does your car have power steering? I was planning on reassembling my car as a rolling Base Unit and subsequently adding first the drivetrain and then the interior and refinished panels. Won't have to keep removing front wings if I have to take the springs in and out to get the shims right. Won't know how much lower the car will sit without the motor, box, seats, panels etc. on it though. I'm well puzzled now! Not to mention depressed after Arsenal got a drubbing last night...

 

[ghce]

Re: My extensive '72 3500 restoration project - Forum users migh

As for a drag race, a 200 bhp SD1 engine with a great big lump of P6 tonnage attached does not make for a quick car My car makes a lovely noise, the custom stainless exhausts and manifolds (Flowtech 0208 586 1717 ask for Paul or Terry) help it breath better, but it is not super quick off the mark. It lights its tyres up well and when rolling pulls like a train to well over 100mph on the motorway, but I have a little unmodified, stock as a rock early 1275GT mini that would kill the poor old Rover off the line.

?

What is the deal here? why do people think that the P6 is a heavy car? when compared to other mid range modern and older sedans it is not a heavy car 1300KG for a Roomy family sized 4 door saloon car and in fact lighter than quite a few in its class, perhaps this "heavy and slow" feeling has been engendered by the owners of Rover p6's themselves esp with horrible SU carbs fitted. My self one of the comments that always was in my mind regarding P6's prior to ownership during test drives and once owned was that any Mini 850 upward would be able to drag off the V8 (and I am certain they could) a car that could barley take the top off a Rice Pudding......However once you have rationalised what is truely going on ie the crap carbs and the auto you realize it is not because of excessive weight. If you do a power to weight comparison between the p6's and other far sportier cars you begin to appriciate that the p6 can be a brisk performer with the right treatment.

Graeme

 

[webmaster]

Re: My extensive '72 3500 restoration project - Forum users migh

I have to say the 2.2TC that I had was pretty brisk, far superior to a 1800 MG Roadster I did some work on, and at least as quick as a late injection Mini Cooper that a mate had.

The guy driving the VR6 golf that had me stuck to his bumper thoughout a rather brisk cross country run could also testify to that, so much so that he waved when we eventually took different turnings. Admittedly I was giving it everything it had, and a bit more, I had to reset the points when I got home

I did some timed 0-60 runs in it using some decent test equipment, and it managed 10.45 seconds with 2 "large" adults onboard, roughly comparable to a modern 2ltr family saloon.

As stated they're not that heavy, similar in weight to an 800, and lighter than many a modern with all their airbags / soundproofing / impact beams etc. For comparison a new BMW 318i (2ltr) weighs 1435kg, produces 143bhp and makes 62 in 9.9seconds.

 

[TwinPlenum3500S]

Re: My extensive '72 3500 restoration project - Forum users migh

My 1275 GT has driveshafts for 12" wheels, running 10" wheels. It is just under 80 bhp. It flies off the line, but revs its nuts out above 50. Effectively it is quick, but not fast. I am confident that it is quicker off the mark than the P6, which when nailed spins the back wheels up .. the Mini gets its power down. In reality a 1971 Mini and a 1972 Rover are laughable in comparison to modern ht hatches, but they look nicer!

 

[ghce]

Re: My extensive '72 3500 restoration project - Forum users migh

Sad but in many cases true, though there are some exceptions. I replaced my daily driver work car which was a 1993 2.2i Honda Accord with a much later model 2001 2.4 Accord, what a mistake 2 models up and a 10 years difference in design age but it feels like I am driving a slug!! The biggest motoring mistake I have ever made.

Graeme

 

[quattro]

Re: My extensive '72 3500 restoration project - Forum users migh

My 1275 GT has driveshafts for 12" wheels, running 10" wheels. It is just under 80 bhp. It flies off the line, but revs its nuts out above 50. Effectively it is quick, but not fast. I am confident that it is quicker off the mark than the P6, which when nailed spins the back wheels up .. the Mini gets its power down. In reality a 1971 Mini and a 1972 Rover are laughable in comparison to modern ht hatches, but they look nicer!

I have a 4L P6 and an Audi A6 2.7 Biturbo quattro.

The Audi is technically better than the P6, it is smoother, faster on bends and anything apart from a totally dry road, safer, more comfortable, has electric windows, heated seats, Dual zone climate control, two CD players (don't ask, I don't know why) and loads of other stuff that I don't even know about. I like driving it.

But, when I drive my P6 - I do so with a smile.

I haven't named the Audi, but I have the P6 (Sparky) - it has character which is something modern cars have lost.