Modern automatics

DaveHerns

New Member
What do people think of these auto gearboxes on modern cars which are basically a manual box with an electronically operated clutch ?
I can see why it's more efficient with less power loss but what about long term reliability ? I'm thinking of VW with DSG , Citroen with ESG, Volvo with Geartronic etc
I'm very gentle on clutches but wonder how long they last with an ECU controlling them
 
There are three basic types available now Dave. I think the Volvo Geartronic is still a conventional automatic with a torque converter, but with shift buttons on the steering wheel to give the illusion of a sequential shift.

The VW DSG has two wet clutches that alternate between the gears - one for odd and one for even gears - and the clutches should last well as they are in the oil with the gears like a automatic gearbox.

It's the single plate clutch robotised manual gearboxes that have the potential to burn themselves out whilst manoeuvring. They're a cheap, light solution to lower CO2 emissions as the computer won't let the engine and gearbox shift or rev at the wrong times.
 
Rover 105R springs to mind! 1957 and Rover were experimenting - torque convertor and a conventional clutch vacuum operated. Had one once.
 
testrider said:
The VW DSG has two wet clutches that alternate between the gears - one for odd and one for even gears - and the clutches should last well as they are in the oil with the gears like a automatic gearbox.

VW and other makes, and invented and developed by Borg Warner IIRC.
 
My parents have just bought a themselves a replacement for my Mum's A-class, and one of the few criteria was that the car had to be automatic. As a result, we tried all manner of different automatic boxes. The A-class was a fairly early incarnation of the modern auto, with no torque convertor, though infinitely better than the ghastly Easytronic box fitted to some Corsas and Merivas (automated manual), and, as long as you drove it normally, the changes were very good. The DSG-equipped cars that my parents tried were very impressive, with excellent gearchanges, but they didn't seem to creep. Ford also fit a similar gearbox, called a powershift, which we didn't sample, but seems to receive great reviews. We tried a couple of CVT-equipped cars, which were a curiosity, and they're certainly far better than the Honda Jazz we considered several years ago. While searching the internet, it appears that DSG cars aren't quite as reliable as one might hope, but, this could well be due, in part, to the fact they require a service every 40k miles, which is doubtless ignored. Honda Jazzes with CVTs appear not to be that durable either. I couldn't live with one of the robotised manual gearboxes, because the change quality when pressing on, even slightly, becomes very unpleasant. I also dislike the lack of a park position, instead relying entirely on the handbrake to hold the car on a hill, when parked. :shock:
In the end, they bought an entirely conventional Volvo V70 2.4 170 Geartronic auto, which has all of the qualities of a traditional auto (with fuel consumption to match, something its imminent LPG conversion will cure) and in my opinion, is far more pleasant in use than many of the newer alternatives. I much prefer a traditional torque convertor automatic, with lots of slip because it's so smooth, and effortless.
 
There's quite a good article about Automated Manual Transmission on Wiki - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-automatic_transmission

My rough guess is that these systems are are now quite well developed and that they wouldn't be much of a risk on a newer car compared to conventional manual transmission. However, on older cars, I would be wary (from a engineering perspective at least). The AMT system is more complex than a normal manual as it uses additional sensors, control system, actuators, hydraulics or electric motors - basically more expensive stuff to go wrong when compared to a clutch pedal and right foot?
 
Modern conventional autos with torque convertor lock up, a brain the size of a planet and as many as seven speeds seem to me to be superb pieces of engineering. I can't imagine they are cheap to make though.

Having driven a Mk3 Escort very extensively with the 1.6 CVH and a CVT box, I can say that I am a full CVT convert. Once you learn how to drive them you can make them do all sorts of tricks, and the fuel consumption is astonishingly low. I particularely liked the ability to make it adopt a very high "gear" by backing off slightly, as if really changing gear, once a cruising speed was neared. That said, it did eat two boxes during our tenure which put me off parting with my own cash for one!

Chris
 
FrazzleTC said:
We tried a couple of CVT-equipped cars, which were a curiosity,

That's not what I'd call them. Piece of cr*p more likely. They've been experimenting on the public with those for years and they're still no bl**dy good. I've just scrapped an otherwise perfect Rover because of the demise of one of those at an earth shatteringly high mileage of about 40K. :roll:
 
harveyp6 said:
FrazzleTC said:
We tried a couple of CVT-equipped cars, which were a curiosity,

That's not what I'd call them. Piece of cr*p more likely. They've been experimenting on the public with those for years and they're still no bl**dy good. I've just scrapped an otherwise perfect Rover because of the demise of one of those at an earth shatteringly high mileage of about 40K. :roll:

Yes, it was the reliability of CVTs that put us off. Our neighbours had a Rover 25, and it had two new CVTs in their ownership, with relatively few miles, yet their 75, with 5 speed auto never had any issues.
 
I need an auto,as my left side sometimes has a will of it's own. I have a 7 speed dsg on my Skoda Roomster, I've had it for a year and a half and 15k mile. I love it, it does take a bit of getting used to, i.e. if you roll up to a roundabout, see a gap and floor it, the car will pause as it was in too high a gear on the rolling decelleration. This scares the crap out of you when you roll into the roadabout going nowhere, then the box hooks up, your foot is to the floor and the car takes off towards the horizon. Once this is allowed for it becomes an easy drive and connected to the 1.2 TSI engine it is not only quick, but very economical. My wife states she wouldn't have any other type of auto.

John.
 
DaveHerns said:
What do people think of these auto gearboxes on modern cars which are basically a manual box with an electronically operated clutch ?
I can see why it's more efficient with less power loss but what about long term reliability ? I'm thinking of VW with DSG , Citroen with ESG, Volvo with Geartronic etc
I'm very gentle on clutches but wonder how long they last with an ECU controlling them

The most modern gearbox I've had the pleasure of using in a car is the ZF 4-speeder. I can't say I was that wrapped in it compared to a traditional 3-speeder from Borg-Warner or GM as I couldn't get used to that lock-up top gear.

As for ECU controlled manual gearboxes; they have them fitted to the commercials where I work. They have a mind and a will of their own :evil: When you want to stay in gear and accelerate the ECU decides it wants to change up; when you want to change up it wants to stay in that gear etc, etc :? . This makes for a very tiring, erratic journey, and labours the engine as a result.

Also the clutches are changed just as frequently as the manual boxes were, as the ECU controls the most suitable gear for moving off from rest; usually a gear too high :(

If the automatic gearboxes are the same as this in modern cars, I'll stick with a manual box for my everyday hack 8)
 
Nothing beats a big V8 and a good old three-speed automatic.
Everything else I ever drove just didn't feel right.
 
What Lee EFi said above.

I was given an automatic Mercedes C220i as a courtesy company car whilst my (manual) one was serviced.

My manual car gives me around 55 mpg on a run to work. On a long motorway journey I have squeezed over 60 mpg out of it.

Best I could get with the auto transmissioned car was 38 mpg. If you wanted to press on but didn't need to drop a cog, the box totally ignored your wishes. Moderate pedal pressure was met with a violent downshift of what felt like around 2-3 ratios. I couldn't wait to hand it back.

I love my Type 35 in the P6; it is a great tranmission IMHO. If I ever want to reach warp factor 5 quickly I bury the pedal and use the kickdown or, albeit rarely, the stick if it needs some precision. It doesn't drop a cog or change up before I want it do; as changes are governed by the kickdown (cable), it is so easy to control upspeed shifts with no more than the skill of your foot.
 
I have 260 thousand miles on my Ford Taurus 24Valve DOHC. The computerized Auto with Traction Control gives me 27 mph
normally and 20mph when we pull the camper.With cruise contol and torque convertor lock-up it gives surprising economy for such a powerful engine, yet responds immediately when I need to get away. Seems to me Auto transmissions have come a long way.
 
rp61973 said:
If you wanted to press on but didn't need to drop a cog, the box totally ignored your wishes. Moderate pedal pressure was met with a violent downshift of what felt like around 2-3 ratios. I couldn't wait to hand it back.

The software controlling that gearbox had learned someone elses (aggressive) driving style and could be reset to perform more how you'd expect. I once test drove V70 that did that and it's quite disconcerting.
 
OrganDoctor said:
I have 260 thousand miles on my Ford Taurus 24Valve DOHC. The computerized Auto with Traction Control gives me 27 mph
normally and 20mph when we pull the camper.With cruise contol and torque convertor lock-up it gives surprising economy for such a powerful engine, yet responds immediately when I need to get away. Seems to me Auto transmissions have come a long way.

You cannot compare a software-controlled real automatic with those newfangled European piff-paff manuals that shift on your behalf when you don't want them to. Two entirely different worlds. Every time I had to drive one of those modern patronising shits, I had the dear wish to treat them with a sledgehammer. If I had the choice between a good old Taurus Wagon and this Euro-rubbish, opting for the former would be a darn well no-brainer for me, lemme tellya.
 
Interesting .... I think I'll stick to a good old manual . I've got a 6 speed on my Citroen C5 but am thinking of changing it . There's loads of 1.6 diesel new shape C5 estates with the EGS gearbox for sale . The 1.6 diesel is known for blowing turbos and I don't really fancy the EGS box now. I'll see if I can stretch to a Volve V70
 
I suppose the electric gearboxes link easily with these electronic handbrakes to prevent the car rolling back when doing a hill start ?
Call me old fashioned but I think automatic handbrakes are just one more thing to go wrong
 
In automatic, I never tend to use the handbrake at all. Just sheer laziness, and, regarded by some as bad form. :LOL:
I've only driven a couple of manuals with automatic handbrakes, one being a Mercedes C220 CDI, and I really didn't like it at all. Wouldn't bother me in an auto, because I'd never use it.
 
That's a problem with the DSG, the first time I left it in gear, put the handbrake on, and took my foot off the footbrake at a set of traffic lights, it paused, then the footbrake hillholder slowly released, then it tried to drag it's arse down the road like a dog with worms.
You cannot leave it in gear on tickover without using the footbrake because it is better described as a semi auto. It has to be treated like a manual at temporary stops and knocked out of gear (or you could annoy the following driver with your high level brake light)


John.
 
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