Improved performance - 2000tc

F

Fraserp6

Member
As I finish off the welding and undersealing of my car, I look towards the engine a the next thing to work on and improve.

As the title would suggest I'd be looking to improve the 4 cylinder 2000 engine. Not by replacing it with a V8 or a 2200tc, rather than working with with what I already had.

Firstly the first thing understand needs to be done is make sure the exisiting engine is clean, mechanically sound and useable in stock form.

Speaking to Piper, they can re-gride a cam, providing that the followers are shimmed along with the carriers. I'd be looking to move to up to Weber carbs, such as DCOE's or the such.

Obviously any improvement in performance require a improvement in the cooling, carburation, including fuel pump and (as I understand) the relatively fragile drive-chain. All of which I'd welcome advice on.

I've read up a fair lot of the 4 cylinder blogs in the last few weeks to get an idea of what I'm venturing out to do, I understand its no mean feat, however, it keeps me off the streets and out the pub, so its something I'm keen to have a go at.

Right now I'm really just putting the feelers out, so to speak, to get an idea what can and cannot be done.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Fraser
 
Big problem with carburation for the 4 pot is the space between the engine and the nearside wing (or lack of). I would have thought that ruled out DCOE's which would have been the obvious carburettor upgrade. Why not instead fit it with fuel injection? There is precedent for this. Rover had intended to launch an electronic injected 2000I in '68 and there are maintenance manuals for it in circulation! It ought to be reasonably easy to drill the existing manifold to take the injectors. You then have plenty of space released by the absence of the carbs to fit a plenum chamber against the wing. A V8 one is the obvious choice and you could either bolt it direct to the manifold with two ports or cut the balance pipe of the manifold down the centre or engine side edge and have four ports. Then you could play at sorting out some trumpets direct to the inlet tracts. There are established aftermarket ECU's out there (check out BBLongmans thread on the one he has fitted to his V8) and all the other bits to make up an injection system are readily available.

If you stay with 10.5:1 compression there is merit in using the ECU to go to a fully mappable electronic ignition which will take care of any pinking issues via the knock sensor. This would eliminate the distributor complete and substitute a crank sensor and four coil pack.

A single silencer exhaust of a suitable diameter would help free off the back pressure and if you wanted to improve further perhaps a larger diameter manifold of the same design as the original. Port the exhaust tracts to match your new manifold size.

Major problem with using the 2000 bore size is that you are stuck with existing valve sizes. No reason why you shouldn't bore out the block to 2200 and fit a 2200TC (big exhaust valves) head though. This also has the advantage of getting the compression down within reach of modern pump fuels.

Once finished with engine upgrades you have to fit a five speed box! There are existing proven mods out there, but I guess that's for another time!

Chris
 
I really like the Mercedes system where the blower is engine driven (by the back of the alternator?) at low engine speed and then when the gas starts flying it gets away and behaves as a normal turbo. If I came across a write off I'd be quite tempted to try and transplant some bits.

Chris
 
One thing to bear in mind if you go to Weber or Delorto type carbs is that you will get a considerable amount of induction noise from them if used with K&N type filters. Joyous in small doses but speaking from experience it can quickly loses it's attraction!

The fuel injection route is well worth considering and I would be happy to offer help from my own experience. Chris's suggestion of a plenum chamber is good one as this will dampen down the same induction noise you would get from throttle bodies..
 
I would be interested in fuel injection, like the photos you showed me a few months back regarding the 2000s and various proposal's Rover had in mind Chris, however, I have no idea where I'm even starting with fuel injection.

If I was to go down this line, I would need a very very idiot proof guide as to what I am doing.

I imagine, however, the benefits of such a system would be significant.

Anyonw have any idea where I should start from?
 
Is there any work I can do to the cylinder head, eg fit a 2200 tc to a 2000, or skim it of such, or is the 2000tc to old and too fragile to deal with any substantial modification.
 
The 2200 head won't fit the 2000 engine, the bigger valves foul on the smaller bore. Skimming the head won't do a thing, a flat head is a flat head however much you skim it!
 
Yeah, since posting about the 2200 head I had found out that they do infact not fit. This would appear to be more complicated than I first thought, mainly due to space and engine's design and the fact that it's 36 years old and quite weak about the sideplate area.
 
How much power are you actually hoping for? There is no point raising the compression as 10:1 is as high as you would really want to go for street use and the design of the TC head is actually pretty good. If the motor is in good shape, have it all balanced and blueprinted for a start. A mild cam upgrade wouldn't hurt and you could polish the ports. The 2" SUs should flow more than enough air (remember, the V8 only has 1 3/4"), just improve the air filters and maybe carb needles. The original exhaust is the biggest restriction and a free flow exhaust will work wonders. You could have a better manifold made up but it probably isn't worth the expense in terms of reward. Ditching the engine driven fan for an electric one will help too.
Some years ago, I ran a rusty '69 SC fitted with a balanced TC motor and 2" exhaust with a performance muffler and resonator. That car was very perky and really flew. (Sounded great too)
It depends on what you want to achieve, going much further than that starts getting very expensive and often unreliable because things start to break and if you want serious power, you're probably better off starting with a V8 or a transplant.
That said, I do know a guy who has built an EFI setup for his TC with a home-made intake manifold and aftermarket computer and he reckons it will leave his 'S' for dead!
 
Thanks Kiwi Rover, the set up described by yourself is what I am looking to start out with to improve performance, depending on how good the performance gains are, I'll either leave it at that or continue onwards and upwards, perhaps to a more unreliable engine.

Does anyone have any information on how to start with fuel injection?
 
I absolutely agree with Kiwi Rovers suggestion. The fun starts when you've got the head off and have a look at the bores and crank. Any problems with either and it's a no brainer to go to 2200 capacity, either by boring your existing block or sourcing a second hand 2200 (there tend to be a lot of spare 2200 engines about as the later cars rusted more than the earlier ones!). Once the bore is up to 2200 then you can use the 2200TC big valve head. No problems with either bore or crank and I'd simply follow Kiwi's suggestion as a 2000.

I wouldn't expect you to get an injection set up working quickly! I would start by sourcing a set of injectors only and then taking your time to construct the inlet manifold / plenum / air cleaner assembly. Only when you are happy with this would I buy the brain and rest of the bits. After all they may well have moved on a generation by then! To put flesh on the "rest of the bits" I'd google a few of the aftermarket systems. Most have the instruction manuals as downloadable pdf's so you can start trying to understand the function in peace and quiet without the pressure of an incomplete car.

My suggestion as to how to proceed would be to attack the job in stages. First do the cam, head and exhaust, retaining the existing carbs. Then, when the car is running, do a side project off the car to create the injection inlet manifold. Finally go the whole hog and and fit the remaining bits for the injection system. Couple of things would be worthwhile to do at stage one to prepare for the injection. Fit a toothed wheel and sensor to either front of the crank or the flywheel. This tells the injection brainwhere the engine is so it can fire the injectors at the right moment. Also fit a boss into the exhaust as near the engine as possible to accept a Lambda sesnsor. That tells the injection brain how succesful the petrol / air ratio was when the engine burnt it so that it can adjust for the next firing.

My recollection is that Richard (webmaster) has already done this to a TC. If he doesn't post here then I should pm him.

Chris
 
My long-term plan for my project car is to switch to distributor-less mapable electronic ignition using a Megajolt/Megasquirt setup, then when that's working properly, look into fuel injection. This way, the electronic side is sorted before starting the really complex stuff. It's also possible that the first stage will improve things enough for me to stick with carbs.
Priority for me is economy, with improved performance as a bonus, rather than the other way round. No longer needing an octane booster to prevent pinking will also be nice.
 
If you want to find out a little about fuel injection then Dave Walker has a good book which not only has information on EFI but some very interesting and straightforwardly presented information on engine tuning generally.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Engine-Manageme ... 1859608353

If you have the car running then I would definately approach the project in stages. I used the Megasquirt system which has the advantage of being cheap and ubiquitous. I did find it had a steep learning curve and some idiosyncrasies but these were overcome in the end.

Switching to the mapped ignition first would definately be the most advisable route.
A fully built MS1/2 Extra ECU from http://www.extraefi.co.uk will cost you £310 to £355 and will run the ignition and also fuel when you need it.
An EDIS module, coil pack and leads will cost about £100 all in and can easily be be obtained from http://trigger-wheels.com
A set of custom made ignition leads will also be required but these should be about £25 from the same source as above.

Fabrication work will be required to mount the trigger wheel, sensor and coil packs along with the wiring for the ECU. You'll then need to get the ignition mapped but you should be able to get a map good enough to start and drive the car initially. A rolling road session will cost around £100 and it pays to do a bit of research thro' the forums to find one in your area with a good reputation.

All in you'll be looking at the best part of £600 but you will then have a fully mapped ignition system which will should give a noticeable improvement in running but give you a good solid basis for further development of the ability to run the fuel injectors once in place.

I'm not familiar with the intake manifold on the 4 cylinder engines but if space is available there is nothing to stop you installing the injectors into a modified manifold and using the existing SU's as the throttle bodies initially. I would estimate a further £400 in parts to get the injectors, bosses, fuel pump etc in place. More complicated fabrication required for this stage. You'll need to get it mapped again of course! The Lamda sensor is optional if you are having the car mapped on a rolling road however it is quite nice to have it in place for reference but it'll set you back another £150 -£200

If you have a running engine in good condition and are seriously interested in the injection I would be tempted to leave the cam and rest of the engine as is at first. In respect of the engine I would probably advise spending the money on a mild but well ported cylinder head initially. To take advantage of any increase in overlap or lift from a cam change this would really required anyway. Essentially it would be wise to blueprint the engine before indulging in excessive tuning you may find that the power from an optimised engine is sufficient anyway.

Be very interested to follow the project if you do decide to go ahead.....
 
Guys,

Firstly, thank you for the input on my forum topic as posted, I admire how there is a community in which ideas are so willingly shared and views expressed. Taking on board these ideas and views I have decided the following.

1.Having a custom manifold made up for DCOE's is both time consuming and costly, so I won't be doing that just now, have a re-spray and tires to spend my beer tokens on first. I will by extension sticking with the HS8, which from my brief scout about the net appear to be about at big as Su's economically go, I will however, be fitting these with ram pipes which I have sourced, I'd also like to up-rate the needle and jet side for performance; does anyone know where I can get these? I didn't see too much on Burlen.

2. I will spend some money, in time, getting the head mildly ported/polished, probably around the same time I uprate my cam and shim the followers.

3. Although I have only just bought a mild steel system which has done less than 300 miles (of which I may be open to offers on...) I will in time, either with mild system sold or worn out upgrade to a stainless system, however, the details of this exhaust I continue to change everytime I think about it.

I'm not ruling out fuel injection or greater modifications, I feel, however, this is a good place to start.

One final thing, does anyone know whats good and whats to be avoided in terms of electronic ignition (the type mounted in the dizzy body) when it come to 4cyl'ers?


Once again thanks for the input, I'd welcome any further thoughts.

Fraser
 
Right, in a matter of weeks I think the p6 will be back on the road for the first time in 16 months. That said I can't resist the temptation to tinker, bringing me on to my question for the forum.



Does anyone know much about the engine fitted to the MG maestro turbos? I think its a Single Carb, blow through turbo system. AND.....

How practical is it to fit on to a 2000. Gearbox patterns, engine mounts etc. The reason I ask is I've been offered one for a pretty decent price.

Alternatively, can the 2000tc withstand the added strain of being turbocharged? if the mentioned engine doesn't fit, I may take the turbo system and fit it to my 2000tc, just sounding out the prospect of my engine disolving under pressure?
 
I intend to fit my Megajolt set-up to my 2000tc and have all the bits, just need to put the trigger wheel on the crank pulley and lay the wiring in. I will keep the standard dizzy in place, so I can switch between the two ignition systems to get a real world evaluation for myself of just how good it really is, and see what the difference is on the rolling road.

Fraserp6 said:
Does anyone know much about the engine fitted to the MG maestro turbos? I think its a Single Carb, blow through turbo system. AND.....

How practical is it to fit on to a 2000. Gearbox patterns, engine mounts etc. The reason I ask is I've been offered one for a pretty decent price.
Click to expand...

Is that the O-series engine, the predecessor to the T-series I'm led to believe, which I've read is a very capable engine? If choosing that engine, it is very likely that there will be a rear wheel drive version so matching inline gearbox, possibly the lt77. I'm sure there's someone fitting a T-series turbo into a 2000 shell, and are nearing the mocking up stage after having some trouble with aligning the ancillaries on the front.

Fraserp6 said:
Alternatively, can the 2000tc withstand the added strain of being turbocharged? if the mentioned engine doesn't fit, I may take the turbo system and fit it to my 2000tc, just sounding out the prospect of my engine disolving under pressure?
Click to expand...

In the Rover Sports Register Forum there is a post on a turbo'd 2000. Clicky link here
 
Goodness me Simon and Fraser! That Oz Turbo installation looks factory neat! The base engine looks like an SC by the inlet manifold. It's much easier to produce a suck through installation like this but I bet the turbo doesn't appreciate all those petrol fumes down it! Since the turbo blows straight into the inlet manifold there is no intercooler - which implies a horrid power curve. The other mods to the car are very intelligent. Anyone spot the Talago like extract vents on the rear 1/4?

Would I turbo charge a Rover 4 pot? NO! I think the crankcase structure is too weak to take the strain for any length of time! See all the other posts on here identifying how regularely these engines like their main and big end bearing shells changed. A sure sign of a weak bottom end. And look at the gaping holes in the side of the block where the cover plates go!

The Maestro Turbo is a very nice engine indeed. Based on the 2ltr O Series and gives 152bhp from memory. That's moderate enough not to suffer too badly from turbo lag or all the other ills of petrol turbo installations. It is indeed a blow through carb. Being an O series, sumps, bell housings and gearboxes for RWD are available from our old freind the LDV Pilot - that's the small Sherpa. The later the better, early ones have the LT77, later the successor R380 which is a better box. We all know the LT77/R380 fits down the P6 tunnel - just use an automatic prop shaft. Engine mounts should be feasible - just cut the complete mount and inner wing from the LDV and you should be able to mug something up. Biggest problem with this installation would be to mount and pipe up the intercooler. Very important indeed that it has as short a hose run as possible (long hose run = lots of air between turbo and engine = turbo lag). You will need a V8 diff to get the gearing high enough to cope and for the extra set of planet wheels so it doesn't go bang!

If you were going to change the engine the O series is in any case an intelligent choice for all the reasons above. Using an MG Maestro/Montego injected head on an LDV engine would give you 115bhp out of the box with stonking torque. A decent exhaust manifold and some intelligent engine management work ought to get you at least another 15bhp.

Chris
 
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