Hi- prospective P6 owner

Q

Quagmire

Active Member
Hi everyone,

Thought it would be best if I posted here first. I am not currently a P6 owner (nor have ever been one) but am hoping to be one soon. This post was supposed to be brief but soon got out of control, so apologies in advance...

My car history is 100% Land-rover up until this point, my first car was a 1959 88" series II which I still own, and drove daily for about 5 years. Then bought a house and moved 25 miles away from my place of employment and so bouncing along in a drum braked, leaf sprung vehicle everyday became slightly less practical.

That was when my current daily drive came on the scene - a B-registered 90 which in the 5 or 6 years I have owned it has become a bit like Triggers Broom. :D When I bought it I had to replace the rear crossmember, fuel tank and buy a roof to get it back on the road. Since then I have:

Fitted LPG to the vehice - the 2.25 4 cylinder was a thirsty lump, slow and not very economical. LPG was a godsend...

Replaced the old 2.25 4-pot for a 3.5 v8 that I lightly rebuilt. (Glaze busted bores, new rings, bearings, cam & followers, timing gears and chain, ground in valves, refaced oil pump base, rebuilt carbs).

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I then got the LPG running on the v8 to save my wallet.

Next was distributorless ignition using "MegaJolt", heres a link to my install thread on LR4x4.com:

http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=50799

This gave me a much nicer, more precise spark and the ability to run two advance curves to suit the two fuels.

Replaced the gearbox (a few times). The v8 Lt77 I fitted was an ebay purchase, I took it home and as it was clean I put it in my parents garage where it sat for a year before I did the v8 conversion. On getting it into the car I drained the fluid to find it was half full of water -yikes! - it must have been pressure washed by the previous owner. I decided to go with it as it was in and it ran it for 9 months before a bearing failed. I then rebuilt the box myself after having problems with a few reconditioned units. Apart from putting a spring clip in backwards causing it grab fourth which necessitated the removal and rebuilding a second time some 500 miles after fitting its all been roses ever since :D

Rear axle was replaced with a disc braked unit that I rebuilt from a Range Rover. It now stops the same as it did with rear drums, but with less fade when towing or on massive hills.

Then the transfer box started whining - so I changed that. The rear prop had play in the sliding joint which clunked when taking up drive so that was replaced too.

The snow and ice of the last few years and the accompanying salt, coupled with the 70mph winds that the canvas top was being subjected to up and down the m3 everday finally finished it off - a hard top was fitted in its place.

The front axle was changed as I wanted to fit later alloy wheels that I had picked up, and the existing axle was in need of rebuild. I bought an axle, trailered it back from Devon and rebuilt it.

The last big thing to happen was the fitting of fuel injection and Megasquirt. I now have fully mappable fuel and spark, retaining the ability to switch maps with change from Petrol to LPG. Fuel injection really has transformed the performance of the 3.5 and economy is good too- although I still have more tuning to do there.

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And here it is as it looks now:

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Enough LR content... So- what am I doing here?

Well, for some time I have always wanted either a P6 or an MGB (well i'd like both, but my wife would kill me)- what has pushed me towards the P6 is the fact that to my mind they must be more practical than an MGB, and better for cruising up and down the a3, which my current commute has me doing.

This is coupled with the fact that my company is moving office locations to the centre of Kingston Upon Thames and I will therefore have to park in one of the various NCP's around the place - something the height of the 90 makes difficult. :(

I have been doing a bit of reading and think a 2200TC Auto might be nice, it HAS to be more comfortable at cruise on the A3 than the 90 but should save my left leg when battling into Kingston and the figures owners have posted on fuelly.com for the 4 cylinder models look pretty good! I only say the 2200 over the 2000 due to the lower compression ratio and modern fuels.

Ideally I would be looking for something perhaps a little tatty, maybe in need of some welding but basically sound. It would be great to have something that needs some work to get it up and running, allowing me to get to know my new friend before getting stuck into more serious things.

So, my questions to the collective are these:

Does my choice of model sound reasonable? Or are there other options - I am open to buying things and swapping parts over to get the right result.

Where should I be looking for rust - sills, floor under carpets, wheel arches - any other moisture/mud traps?

Are there any bits that you simply cannot get hold of anymore? Where do you get bits from? I have been spoiled with the multitude of landrover parts suppliers online.

Where are the best places to find P6's advertised as for sale? Apart from here...

Many thanks in advance to anyone who has got this far! Apologies for the long post...

Jamie
 
Hello and welcome to the forum, Jamie! Obviously a lot of work has gone into your Land Rovers, and I can see the appeal.
In terms of P6s, 2200TCs weren't available with automatic transmission from factory, but that's not to say that you can't make your own. I must confess, if I had the time and money, I'd love to make a 2200TC automatic. The 2200SC automatic is very acceptable though, and a good deal quicker than the 2000 auto, though, once you're used to it, the 2000 auto is actually very pleasant, and worthy of more praise than it generally receives. I also would say that although V8s are lovely, a four cylinder P6 offers a very rewarding ownership experience. I would say that if you're not terribly fussed about tax exemption, you're more likely to pick up a good example for less, but have a look at everything, and work out what suits you best. The great thing about P6s is that you can change them until they're exactly as you want them.
In terms of rust, just be very thorough. In short, you want to be checking the sills, with the covers removed, the D posts, floors, under the back seat, and the 'hockey sticks' which are located at the front of the front wings, just behind the sidelights. Cosmetically, tops of rear wings, and door bottoms are most common as rust spots.
From a parts perspective, I've never had trouble getting anything, be it secondhand or new. There are several P6 parts suppliers, who will appear after a quick google!
I'd recommend having a look on the forum regularly, looking at www.carandclassic.co.uk, ebay, and buying 'Classic Car Weekly' to find as many potential candidates as possible. Don't forget the two P6 clubs both have magazines where you will also find cars for sale.
Hope this helps, and all the best in your search for a P6!
 
Hi Jamie and welcome aboard! We like Landies here - all part of the Rover family!

Right then!

Well you're not afraid of a bit of work - and the things you've succeded in doing to your Landy mean you're pretty competent in all things mechanical and electronic!

So I'll not hold back on the recommendations!

As the car is going to be a daily driver, I think the best place to start would be with a sound and rust free base unit. "De-rusting" a P6 can be a major undertaking and I guess it's best not to have to do that as the very first item of ownership! Have a look at Testrider's project thread on HOT to see some of the hazards.... Then go to see a few cars with one of us accompanying to give you clues to what you're looking for. Or have a trip down to Nick Dunning's yard (He's Farncombe, so reasonably close) to have him and Duncan show you round what they are working on.

The P6 has two different transmission tunnels in the base unit, one narrow one for manuals and a wide one for auto's. So you need to start by looking for a car that started life as an auto. The next major choice is 4 pot or V8. There isn't a damatic difference in fuel consumption between the two around town, but the 4 pot has a higher potential cruising mpg than the V8 - both are going to be around 20 to 23 around town, V8 around 26 and 4 pot around 30 on long criuse. The V8 engine bay is wider, so you won't be able to fit a V8 to a 4 pot later.

Character wise, the V8 can seem a little ponderous - it has very poor turn in, so roundabouts can be wearing, although we know how to fix that! The 4 pot is generally very alive and chuckable. Both are in their element on long sweeping minor A roads where they are seriously fast grand tourers. No need for power steering on either.

Both V8 and 4 pot auto's are available road tax exempt. But you'll pay a mint for a nice tax exempt V8 cos it's likely to be an S1 and they're rare and desirable.There are a few S2 tax exempt V8 autos, but not many.

Al 4 pot autos come as built with the strip speedo. Easy to fit a factory rev counter set up, but you're hunting for compromises to fit the other necessary gauges - or you can reasonably easily do a dash binnacle transplant to get the round dial instrument pack that the V8 comes with as standard. Flat pleat cloth seats are the most comfy, followed by flat pleat leather, then box pleat cloth, then box pleat leather or vinyl. But interiors are very easy to swop.

Engine wise, you know all about the V8 - only addition here is to say that the radiator size is marginal in the P6 and a good sort out of the cooling system with a three row rad would be desirable. The 4 pot is likely to need mains and big ends - they can be changed in situ via the sump - they are a consummable and need to be budgetted at 60k intervals. Clue is oil pressure less than 50 at idle. Setting the valve clearances - an involved procedure with shims - is critical to valve survival, the engines burn valves anyway and a tight clearance will accelerate that dramatically. A full engine overhaul is expensive because of parts cost, but there are lots and lots of spare 4 pots knocking around.

The BW transmission is excellent except when it isn't (which is rarely). Then it can be a pain to get right, but we have the world expert on them on here to help us! Critical test is does it change into top at around 40 on a light throttle and does it kick down OK?

What would I do? I'd buy a tax exempt 2000 Auto. Then either fit a 2200TC motor or just fit a TC head to the 9:1 original block depending on your assesment of condition. Oh and GAS!

Happy hunting

Chris
 
Hello & welcome Jamie. Excellent first post! Going by your forum name, I wonder if you are a Family Guy :) ?

Hard to think of much to add to Chris & Frazzle's excellent and concise advice. Only a couple of things spring to mind - the 2200TC (and 2000TC) 4 branch exhaust manifolds are a little fragile and seem to give slightly more problems that the SC's 4-into-1 (not a big deal as they can be repaired or good replacements found). Also, in terms of series 2 build quality, the advice from Nick Dunning on this old post may help - http://www.classicroverforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=13241&p=109971&hilit=paint+line#p109971 i.e. that 1971-74'ish series 2 cars tend to be best. Couple this with Chris's advice to get a tax exempt car and it may be that a 1971 or 1972 car is your ideal choice?

Given the hard earned experience you have on Rover V8's from your Landies, I was a little curious as to why you weren't set on an V8 P6?

If I was going to use a P6 as an all year round daily driver, from a purely practical/financial point of view, I would tend to go for a 71 or 72 2000SC manual with LPG conversion?? (Ooops - queue rush of protests from V8 and automatic owners :D )
 
Welcome to the forum Jamie.

Don't write off a V8 if you're doing motorway type driving - we have commuting customers who will get circa 28mpg on the daily run, not really worse than a 4-cylinder in similar use.

If it's shorter runs though the 2000/2200 is the best option, and, as Chris says, they can be more rewarding to drive.

If I can be of any help ring me (we're based in South West Surrey) on 07748 983948 or PM me.

Cheers
Nick
 
Plus 1 on the eight, 30 mpg has been got from one of our members with a 4.6 conversion so I see no reason why a properly mapped 3500 manual 5 speed could not top that for frugelness.

Graem
 
loving the landy!

If you do get a 4 pot P6 then we'll be alternate - mine's a 4 pot petrol landy and a V8 P6 :D I toyed with V8'ing my series 2A, but plumped for a 4 pot rebuild as I value my gearbox and halfshafts(!) and I also have the V8 in the P6. I'm not that good at regulating the right foot - when in doubt flat out!

There are enough of us about that you could try a 4 pot vs a v8, and see which takes your fancy. My personal choice would be a 5 speed V8 one, but I'm biased and don't have another V8! I've found my V8 auto to be an absolute stormer of a motorway machine, returning an all time average of 23mpg, with peaks of 25-26 on a motorway run at 70 ish :wink: The only slight annoyance is the 'knife edge' tuning to avoid pinking because of the high compression ratio.

Out of interest - how hard was it to rebuild the LT77? I have one that might be in similar condition to the one you rebuilt... And having had a type 9 gearbox that came full of water I feel your pain!!

And I'll be picking your brains about the megasquirt at some point I'm sure! :wink:
 
Wow! Thank you everyone for such a warm welcome and a fantastic amount of information!

To clarify a few things - I currently drive from Farnham to New Malden everyday, this is around 30-31 miles each way.

Office moves to Kingston anytime from late Feb onwards, although I am sure this will slip. I really hope it does. The new office has NO parking, so we have been given a deal on NCP parking at £750 a year. This is the motivation for getting a more practical car as some of the height restrictions in Kingston are quite low. I could buy a "normal" car, but where is the fun in that? I like the fact that I get to drive my hobby everyday. :D

So to add further thoughts based on everyones posts:

I hadn't realised that the trans tunnels would be different widths between Auto's and Manuals (should have engaged brain) - also didn't realise that the engine bay would be narrower on a 4 pot, precluding my dropping a v8 in there if I wanted. I had assumed that the P6 would follow other Rover/BL products and use the same base for everything :oops:

I do like the round gauges as compared to the "strip" gauge look.

I had initially decided on the 4 cylinder models purely for economy reasons. I get around 20mpg on petrol with my 3.5 in the 90, although this could be improved with some more tuning - especially the spark advance. I had thought that I wouldn't get much more from a P6, perhaps low to mid 20's.The 90 has to be lighter but I guess that it's shape really does it no favours at speed- High 20's on cruise would be perfectly acceptable.

This coupled with the fact that I probably would end up gassing and fuel injecting a v8 would mean that it could potentially be pretty good on fuel, and I get to keep that noise too :)

Another bonus is that we have three rover v8's in the family (my 90, my Dads 110 and his 101) and so we have plenty of spares and know the engine pretty well. My dad has a spare 3.5 and a 3.9 in the garage. I have a spare pair of later 10 bolt heads, and loads of EFI bits and bobs as well as my old SU's.

So perhaps what I am actually after is a fairly sound(ish)3500 auto? I have had a look at the thread on the welding work on HOT and agree that I would not want to have to do that much right away... :shock: Welding is not my favourite of things. Well... I don't mind welding, its all the cutting and grinding work I don't get on with!

I could then fit efi later and I guess I could put an LT77 in there too if I wanted? - I have a spare Range Rover one, but I'm sure that the mainshaft would have to be changed for something a bit shorter - the Range Rover bellhousing is about a foot long...

To answer some of your questions:

Rebuilding the LT77 was really not that hard, you do need to turn up a few bits and bobs to pull things on and off etc, but if you know someone with a lathe that's pretty simple. There is an excellent thread on LR4x4.com showing exactly what you need to do. You can buy a rebuild kit from Ashcroft transmissions or similar and this includes the bearings, seals, synchro rings etc that you need. The later Landrover workshop manuals are excellent reference too and can be found easily in pdf format on the web - I also used the LR manuals when rebuilding my engine. The thread on LT77 rebuild is here:

http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=52887

LR4x4 also has a great section on Megasquirt which is definitely worth a read. I run an MS1 on a V3 board, and use the 11_d "hires" code. Fuelling is done with an old "Flapper" style Range Rover top end with the standard low impedance injectors and a resistor pack. Ignition is controlled by MS via a Ford EDIS unit, driving Ford wasted spark coil packs. I ordered the unit as an unassembled kit from diyautotune.com and you can get one together with a few evenings of soldering. Fuel injection has been the best upgrade that I have done by far.

Thanks everyone - your responses have all confirmed that getting a P6 and becoming part of such a great community is the thing to do!

Jamie
 
i you're going for gas the standard p6 setup of 10.5:1 *should* work well. Is injection better for LPG? I'd have thought the simplicity of twin SUs would be desirable for that? Just wondering as i'm nearly ready to LPG mine and want as much info as possible :)
 
I think the EFI top end may breathe a little better than the twin SU's - when I fitted it there was a noticeable difference on both fuels. Petrol running is now amazing! Much more ooomph whilst still getting better consumption. I am getting around 20mpg now on Petrol vs about 17-18mpg before.

I ran SU's for 3-4 years whilst using LPG with no problems really. I only fitted the EFI as I wanted to make running on petrol cheaper when I was unable to get any gas.

I am also planning on getting my Megasquirt driving LPG injection too - but I have a few things to sort first before I can get this up and running. That should help LPG economy quite a bit I hope.
 
Hi Jamie,

Welcome to the forum. Fantastic first post! Glad to hear we've got another convert to the P6 camp!

I'm +1 for the 4-cylinder half of the campsite. When getting into the P6, I think most people's natural tendency (quite understandably) is to think of the 4-pot as the 'base' model, the fleet car if you will, and the V8 as the top of the range. That is true of many other British saloon cars, but the 2000 and 3500 were actually marketed as two very separate cars. The 2000 was aimed at the 2-litre luxury sports saloon market that the car effectively created (now populated by the like of the 3-series BMW), where the 3500 was a relatively low volume product (just 80,000 vs 250,000 4-pots built) aimed at the traditional Rover man who wanted smoothness and refinement, hence the automatic transmission, and wasn't too fussed about fuel economy.

For this reason, the P6 bucks the 'man-logic' rule of thumb that bigger numbers are better. The 2000 is the original engine, designed specifically around the P6 chassis, to deliver a carefully specified set of performance figures. For its day, it's quite an advanced bit of kit, and contrary to popular opinion is lighter than the V8 engine (it's the MGB 4-pot/V8 weight difference that people confuse it with). The efforts to accommodate the V8 engine also mean the base unit is quite different from the bulk-head forwards. The 2000 engine is mounted very well (hung from the high chassis rails rather than supported from underneath like the V8) giving it a lower centre of gravity than the top-heavy V8, and the original suspension mounting points give it a more positive, poised, nimble feel on the twisty stuff. And my, does it rev!

The 2000TC model, which had a rally-derived big-port 'head and tubular exhaust as standard, was also squarely marketing as the performance/sports model right up until the launch of the 3500S in 1972, and as Chris and Nick hint above, the 4-pot's handling on the twisty stuff continued to outclass its bigger brother even after that. But that's not to say the 3500 is worse, they are just very different cars with very different characters.

Try a good example of both (plenty on here own both!) and see what you fancy. I've had the pleasure of driving, and being driven in, both and they are definitely equals!

Michael
 
Small update - I should have my very own P6 sometime Saturday! Just got to pick it up. :D Its a red 3500S, black leather interior- approx 1974-ish.

One question - the car is parked nose down on a steep drive, and I am unable to start it due to carbs leaking like sieves. I need to recover it up the drive (which luckily is only 10ft only or so to the road) and get it onto a car trailer.

So where is the best rear recovery point to attach to? It'll need to be winched or towed out with one of the Land-Rovers and I don't want to do any damage!

Thanks :)
 
Don't use the small lashing hooks under the back corners of the boot floor, they will not hold. If the car has a towbar then that makes it easy. If not, your next option is a strap around the back of the de dion elbow where it bolts to the tube. (don't put the strap around the de dion tube, it could bend.) The elbows should be strong enough unless the underside is really rusty but it should be fine for a short distance.
 
Another small update- am picking the car up tomorrow morning, but Dad and I popped over there last night after work to see if we could get it running.

Swapped the leaky carbs for the SU's I had previously had on the Landrover prior to fitting fuel injection.
Threw a battery on it - cranked it a little and pressure came up very quickly indeed.
Put 10 litres of fuel in.

Nothing!

Checked for spark and not a sausage

After having to reacquaint ourselves with how points distirbutors work, and swapping the points for a new set the situation was rectified and it fired up after a little more cranking. Result :D

Cue copious amounts of white smoke from the rear whilst it hiccuped its way through the last dregs of 10 year old fuel, and copious amount of grey smoke from the front as 10 years of dust and grime burnt off the headers :shock:

Small problem is that the clutch pedal appears to be seized solid- I reckon you could put your full body weight on it and it wouldnt budge. Cant believe I didnt notice that before :oops: Oh well, probably rebuild or replacement of cylinders required.

Tried a little tow up the drive behind the 90 using the DeDion elbows and this worked well, also proved that the brakes were not seized on and that the brakes do work.

Another small problem is that the passenger footwell is full of water - about 4-5 litres of the stuff. Windscreen rubbers front and rear are badly perished so hopefully they are the cause. As my Dad pointed out, the fact that the water hasnt gone anywhere proves that the floor must be solid!

So list of things to do over the coming weeks when its gets back to my parents are:

-Wash the pine needles and bird poo off it...
-Remove wet carpets, clean and dry them
-Dry out footwell
-Confirm where water is coming into cabin and resolve.
-Check further for rust – including removing relevant panels.
-Fix any rust.
-Fix clutch.
-Replace Radiator – it leaks and will only hold water at half full, any more than that leaks out right away.
-Probably replace most of the water hoses.
-Change all fluids.
-Generally check over everything, including brake lines, suspension bushes etc.
-Sort wheels and tyres.

MOT- hopefully...

Should be fun!
 
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