Front Spoilers for P6?

302Rover

302Rover

Member
Hello all,
has anyone fitted a set of these spoilers offered on ebay? If so, what effect, if any, have you noticed? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ROVER-P6-2000 ... 1c348754be

The problem I'm running into is a very light feel at freeway speeds, sort of 'twitchy' steering as if the front end is trying to lift off the ground. I have read that when police were driving the P6 they experienced the same effect due to loading heavy communications gear in the boot. Well I have also loaded extra weight at the back of the car by fitting a differential from a Jaguar XJS. I did this to take the torque output from the Ford 5 litre V8 I installed in the car; I posted a description of this mod last year on this forum but have yet to post how I fitted the Jag diff. The Jag diff is much heavier than the Rover unit and I am now noticing the front end lift effect.

Now, getting back to the eBay spoilers, they look quite small to me and I'm dubious that they could offer any real downforce effect. Further more if one looks at the spoilers that were used on cop cars back in the day, they are of a different configuration. For example here is a link to some photos of an original Rover P6 police car. The spoilers look larger and angled downward at about a 45 deg angle. http://retrorides.proboards.com/thread/73146

Any comments would be appreciated.

Cheers,
Tom
 
Guessing its because you're comparing v8 and a 2000 which have a different front valance?
 
The bigger engine should compensate for the heavier diff.

Police fitted them because they used to drive them very quickly, not so much because of the weight in the boot 8)

The V8 spoilers do make a difference. the front end is a lot more stable at motorway speeds and no so susceptible to side winds, well worth the effort in my opinion.



And they make them look better, well I think so anyway :D

Richard
 
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quattro said:
The bigger engine should compensate for the heavier diff.

Police fitted them because they used to drive them very quickly, not so much because of the weight in the boot 8)

The V8 spoilers do make a difference. the front end is a lot more stable at motorway speeds and no so susceptible to side winds, well worth the effort in my opinion.



And they make them look better, well I think so anyway :D

Richard
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Hi Richard,
actually the system weight of the Ford V8, when taking into account that there are GT40 aluminum heads, aluminum radiator, less weight in the starter and alternator, and the lighter weight Tremec gear box, is about the same as the old Rover motor/gear box. And because the V8 sits a bit further back in the car, the c g shifted aft. So the net effect is more weight towards the rear. It was my understanding, from reading various articles, that the c g shift rearward, coupled with the fact that the police drove them at high speeds, created some instability at speed.

For what ever reason, my car is no longer as stable as it was when stock so I need to address the problem. With the 2000TC valence, the spoilers available on eBay are smaller than those for the V8 valence and I'm wondering if they are as effective.

I do agree with you that the V8 spoilers look good and they also look as if they could do some good at speeds above 70 mph. Maybe I can fabricate some like those to fit on my valence.
Tom
 
Yep, P6's do go light at the front at speed. Perhaps at a tad more than what I assume US freeway speeds are though? They're also notoriously susceptable to sidewinds.

The spoilers you've seen go a long way to curing this.

But you should also take a very careful look at your front wheel alignment - we call it tracking over here. The front suspension does some rather unexpected things for the average tyre fitter, and just setting it with a bit of toe in won't do. There's a lot of camber change in bump, and if you combine that with toe in (or toe out) you get some strange bump steer effects. For the best results, set the tracking at spot on zero - ie wheels parallel to each other in the direction of travel. Make sure any error is towards toe in rather than toe out, but try and get it less than 1/2 a degree. Clearly you need a properly kitted laser alignment place for that.

There is a very large chin spoiler available from Scott's down under, but in my view it doesn't suit the car at all. Simon Owen in his project thread has created his own front undertray which looks really good. If you can't find the picture I'll see if I can post it here.

Chris
 
chrisyork wrote,...
There is a very large chin spoiler available from Scott's down under
Click to expand...

Not any more Chris, they're all gone. In any case I did talk to him about those. He said that they really only made a difference which was noticable above 80mph (128kph).

Ron.
 
chrisyork said:
Yep, P6's do go light at the front at speed. Perhaps at a tad more than what I assume US freeway speeds are though? They're also notoriously susceptable to sidewinds.

The spoilers you've seen go a long way to curing this.

But you should also take a very careful look at your front wheel alignment - we call it tracking over here. The front suspension does some rather unexpected things for the average tyre fitter, and just setting it with a bit of toe in won't do. There's a lot of camber change in bump, and if you combine that with toe in (or toe out) you get some strange bump steer effects. For the best results, set the tracking at spot on zero - ie wheels parallel to each other in the direction of travel. Make sure any error is towards toe in rather than toe out, but try and get it less than 1/2 a degree. Clearly you need a properly kitted laser alignment place for that.

There is a very large chin spoiler available from Scott's down under, but in my view it doesn't suit the car at all. Simon Owen in his project thread has created his own front undertray which looks really good. If you can't find the picture I'll see if I can post it here.

Chris
Click to expand...

Chris,
thanks for the thoughts. As a first step I will have the alignment measured to see what I currently have. On a 'normal' front suspension positive caster will give some added directional stability. Would you say that may also help the Rover? And if so, where would I shim to increase positive caster?

Regarding the Scott's spoiler, I just received an email from Scott saying that they no longer make those. You also mentioned Simon Owen; we have been corresponding back and forth for the last couple of weeks discussing spoilers and the work he is doing. I'm trying to ride on his coat tails and will be very interested to see how effective his front spoiler will be once he gets it constructed. Meanwhile I was fishing among Forum members for thoughts on the small spoilers that fit the 2000TC valence.

Thanks for your help.
Tom
 
Lucky wears a pair of those spoilers, in fact I commissioned their manufacture. He is very stable indeed at speed and in crosswinds now. But as I said, the spoilers are only half the story, you need very careful attention to the front geometry as well. On Lucky there was also a height mismatch of around an inch between the rear road spring seats in the base unit, so you might find it pays to either do a bit of very careful measurement or to borrow a set of wheel scales to check for uneven wheel loads.

Chris
 
On my P6, I find it acceptably stable at speed, with a nose down stance, and lowered front valance, though as I've already mentioned to 302Rover, I have experienced similar lightness issues, though mine felt more from the rear getting light first. I have set my tracking by steering feel, getting a balance between twitchiness and dull heaviness was hard going with severe access problems, but I've found a good compromise that works well upto high speeds.

Another thing worth checking is physically where the centre of gravity is, and comparing that to a standard P6. I have a standard P6 2000 in storage which is an ideal candidate for me to perform a direct comparison, but access to it at the moment is almost impossible.

I do intend to slightly change my lower valance, as it has caught some damage from kerbs, so a future slight redesign is on the cards now. One point I'll say is I think at higher speeds, the present profile of mine sloping rearwards could possibly be channeling air back underneath, so part of my plan is to angle the lower edge forwards with a subtle seperate part, to help push air out sideways.

The simplest solution that immediately springs to my mind, although maybe not the most pleasing to the eyes, would be a vertical strip of metal along the trailing edge of the valance, maybe 1-2" deep, screwed on so it can be easily removed and changed depending on how it performs and looks like fitted. Making it look period or factory will be the hardest part I think, but the short police style spoilers do look fairly good to finish the ends off.

The more actual experiences of with and without the police style spoilers the better, as the experiences will go someway to help the first steps of a solution based on an educated guess, rather than blind attempts at achieving a solution.
 
chrisyork said:
Lucky wears a pair of those spoilers, in fact I commissioned their manufacture. He is very stable indeed at speed and in crosswinds now. But as I said, the spoilers are only half the story, you need very careful attention to the front geometry as well. On Lucky there was also a height mismatch of around an inch between the rear road spring seats in the base unit, so you might find it pays to either do a bit of very careful measurement or to borrow a set of wheel scales to check for uneven wheel loads.

Chris
Click to expand...
Hi Chris,
are you able to tell, approximately, at what speed the effect of the spoilers begins to kick in and add some stability or is the increase in stability so subtle and gradual that one can't really tell?
Tom
 
To some extent, I'm going from, possibly faulty, memory of our 3500S when it was new. That car started to go light around 75 ish and by 90 was alarmingly so. Lucky is arrow steady all the way to 122 (!!)

Hope that helps.

Chris
 
chrisyork said:
To some extent, I'm going from, possibly faulty, memory of our 3500S when it was new. That car started to go light around 75 ish and by 90 was alarmingly so. Lucky is arrow steady all the way to 122 (!!)

Hope that helps.

Chris
Click to expand...

Yes, that does help. I am experiencing the same sort of 'light at 70-75 mph and up' sensation. So if I interpret what you are saying correctly, the small spoilers at either end of the valance keep the car steady at all speeds. Assuming, as you recommend, the front end is corrrectly aligned.

Tom
 
quattro said:
The bigger engine should compensate for the heavier diff.

Police fitted them because they used to drive them very quickly, not so much because of the weight in the boot 8)

The V8 spoilers do make a difference. the front end is a lot more stable at motorway speeds and no so susceptible to side winds, well worth the effort in my opinion.



And they make them look better, well I think so anyway :D

Richard
Click to expand...

They do look fantastic and really do help at higher speeds. The originals that we used to make the copies were from my 3500S and once over 80MPH, really settled the car down.

The smaller 2000 ones that Classeparts are selling on ebay will make no difference at all. He's only done them as he did some for the V8 as well.. they're more an aesthetic thing than a functional item.
 
i beg to differ Chris.

The small 2000 type ones that Classeparts now sells were done to my commission for Lucky - you'll remember that Lucky has a special front valance made by grafting the ends of a 2000 valance onto the centre of a 3500. My view is that they most certainly do make a difference. But equaly not as much as they do with the V8 valance. Remember that the V8 valance is essentiallly a sharkstooth valance with an enlarged centre radiator scoop. At the time the V8 was launched Rover had just been taken over by Leyland's. I'd expect that the Rover engineers would have wanted to update the V8 valance to the new 2000 shape (the V8 valance had been around on prototypes since 1965, pre development of the new 2000 valance). That shape had been specifically developed to counter front end lift, apparently after complaints about the rally cars. But in order to facilitate assembly to the existing front wings, the new wider and lower section doesn't go all the way out to the edge of the car. This is what the V8 spoilers do, because they overlap the panel join, and the 2000 spoilers are intended to win that last bit of extra depth over and above the 2000 valance. In the middle of a post takeover assessment of the company I am confident that Leyland would have blocked the additional investment required - "but you've already got the tooling for a front valance. What do you need another set for?"

Chris
 
Do the remanufactured Police spoliers come with gaskets? If not, what is everyone using to ensure a neat join?

Ron.
 
Now have a pair of them from Classepart, and they came with foam rubber gaskets - noted on them that they need trimming to fit.
 
Having read all the messages above, I am wondering if we are expecting the P6 to handle like my Citroen C3 Picassso does!!! It never will though and I don't expect it could ever be made to do so! The Citroen is perfectly stable at any speed, quiet, comfortable, economical, spacious and just annoyingly practical. I love my P6 for what it is and have no real urge to change anything. They were wobbly at speed when new and it is still great fun in a crosswind!!
 
It all depends on what you use your car for. With my 3500S, I was 21 years old and enjoyed driving at speed, so they really did make a difference.

Now that I'm old as shit, I stick to the speed limit whether driving my daily car, or a classic.. as I have no real interest in getting anywhere fast, and I happen to like my job - where even points for speeding would cause me issues.
 
Resurrecting this thread does make me wonder whether it would be worth putting some 'Police' spoilers on my V8.

Even driving at around 50mph recently I did comment to my passenger that it felt a bit like 'tacking a yacht' in a strong crosswind :oops:. The car does drive well in more benign situations so I don't think it's a particularly poor handling P6.

I happen to think that on balance the spoilers improve the look too!
 
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