Finally a tidy 3500S!

Tor

Active Member
#41
Great, thanks for taking the pics Ron. I felt funny about that shield but that's clearly how it sits.

The car has had the speedo replaced at the time of importation and LHD conversion in 1977, and again later on, but using recorded mileages on old MOTs and other documents I've decided it has about 180 kkms on it, possibly a bit more. The current odo reading is 77k so it's not too far off. The engine was rebuilt maybe 30k ago and only has a light tappety noise coming and going, else dry and with good oil pressure and all of that. With that, a leaky PAS and the four-speed being what it is, I'll always have stuff to do.
 

Tor

Active Member
#42
Oh gawd, someone's far too bright idea is revealed. I took my paint stripper, masquerading as a pressure washer, to the de Dion assembly and the gray stone-chip came right off. Turns out it was splashed on to a layer of 'right chav yellow' without anyone giving it a key.

I've looked around for felt washers for the handbrake mechanism, which is missing a few, with no luck. I did pick up some molybdene sulphide grease for the pivot and handbrake lever and maybe the caliper internals - heat and petroleum etc. resistant. As an alternative to coppaslip and other kinds, any opinions on its virtues? Today's biggest win, however, was a kit full of petroleum-resistant UNF O-rings in all sizes. In the future I shall only need two piston seals from the brake specialists and I can overhaul my calipers locally...

Oh, and the mounting I photographed above is of course for the top link. The lower one is similarly solid, just showing a little more battle scars.
 

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Tor

Active Member
#44
Result!


Before sending me home, they chamfered(?) the rim of the bore to allow for a ring of adhesive to form at the top around the liner as an extra seal so to speak. I've yet to glue the liners in, and have been recommended a two-component product called Super Epoxy for the job. When fitted and hardened I'll drill holes for the fluid and start assembling. Think they did a brilliant job with it, asking nothing for it at all (suggesting only that I might be able to ply them with duty free tobacco). Waahey 8)
 

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Tor

Active Member
#45
DaveHerns said:
It may be chav yellow but that De Dion assembly looks sound
Hi Dave,

It's actually pretty solid, yes, and the elbow mountings haven't had too much rust developing in them so the metal looks more or less as thick as it ought to. The whole thing has been rust treated, zinc primed and is currently silver with satin black hubs and drive shafts, but might get a coat of that dark gray metallic before assembly.

A question I'd like to put to the forum is about the diff extension, where the flange doesn't go all the way in on the spline. It meets with firm metal-to-metal resistance and won't go any farther. Should it? I don't remember if it was flush before it came off and the handbook doesn't mention it. The circlip and bearing have not been out, and I've fitted a new seal.

Glued, baked and drilled the brake sleeves last night. Ended up using JB Kwik Weld, as suggested by the brakes people, and which I had lying about. I thought the ratchet mechanisms were worn by the looks of the knurled pushrod, but on closer inspection they turn out to be decent and both ratchets are doing what they should on the first attempt. I just hope now that performance will match looks 8)
 

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SydneyRoverP6B

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#46
Tor wrote,...
A question I'd like to put to the forum is about the diff extension, where the flange doesn't go all the way in on the spline. It meets with firm metal-to-metal resistance and won't go any farther. Should it?
That is correct Tor. If you wish to confirm, the measurement from the front of the flange to the front of the harmonic damper is 34mm, from the rear of the flange to the face of the aluminium alloy pinion extension case is 11.5mm, and the gap between the flange and the steel insert that fits into the end of the pinion extension case is very close to 3mm.

Ron.
 

Tor

Active Member
#49
So my mate took me out to his newspaper printers workshop yesterday, expecting us to address the bushes with creatively applied bearing pullers and vises. We expected hours of toil, and feared at least one or two instances of utter failure. But right away a colleague of his casually pointed out the looming presence of what we somehow didn't notice - a foot-operated hydraulic bearing press and a case full of spacing rings. Our mood perked up.

They all came out with 4-5 tonnes of judiciously applied pressure except one on the crossmember, which wouldn't budge until the gauge read 15 tonnes. The bore had a good deal of rust in it. Eight bushes out, ten in, 90 minutes was all it took. The smallest ones were the toughest as they tended to buckle and flop over a few times before going in. But once the head had been sufficiently brutalised and agreed to enter, the rest went through with very little pressure.

Thing I'm a bit concerned about, perhaps irrationally, is the freely rotating bushes/sleeves, where the old stuff was bonded, non-rotating inserts, and the effect it'll have on the ride :roll: Having wanted to do this job for the longest time, and get a nice taut ride, I'd really like to get it right. Argh.




I then primered the components with zinc and today they might get the first topcoat on.
 

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unstable load

Well-Known Member
#51
I'm with Dave here. I helped a mate fit Poly bushes to a Land Rover once and they also had "loose" bushes and ome funny red lube to assemble them. He forever regrets that choice.....
 

Tor

Active Member
#52
Yes I'll just have to see how it comes together here, and how the lack of torsion resistance along the normal travel axes will affect the car. I'm expecting a drop in ride height and more load on the road springs and having to up the rear shocker adjustment to compensate for what I can. Unless all the bushes in combination add a different/similar firmness in some magical way. I don't see the bolts and tabs gripping the polyurethane any.

EDIT: Has anyone successfully fitted replacement springs from another make of car to the P6? I have a breaker nearby - getting HD springs from the UK will break the bank now.
 
#53
Why get replacement springs from the UK Tor? Sweden isn't backward with engineering skills so there is bound to be a manufacturer relatively locally. The detail spec for the factory HD springs is in the workshop manual, all you need to do is measure the external diameter of the ones you have. I had mine made up by a spring shop within 5 miles of home!

The only HD springs available off the shelf in the UK are the "Ray Weekly" type from Ian Wilson. These are not to factory spec but are varaible rate. People tell me they work well, but being a bit of a purist when it comes to suspension design and handling, I wouldn't consider them. The problem in my eyes being that along with the varaible rate you get varaible roll stiffness - ergo a different handling balance at gentle lean to maximum lean - not my cup of tea! They are extremely good if all you want to do is tow a caravan though.....

Factory HD springs are spot on 10% uprated and standard ride height, which I think works perfectly with the Classeparts large anti roll bar. If you want to go a bit more than that then the spring manufacturer will be able to work out coil size and number along with free length to achieve what you require. But remember that there is a tricky calculation to do to work out what uprate you would require for the front to maintain the neutral handling. At the rear 10% extra stiffness of spring = 10% extra roll stiffness. At the front you also have an anti roll bar, so you need to work out how much roll stiffness that contributes first, then work out the bellcrank ratio for the front springs to figure out how much they contribute to the roll stiffness. Then uprate the combined result by how ever many % and add the extra to the springs only. I'd GUESS that a 25% uprate at the rear might well require a 50% uprate at the front to maintain the front / rear roll stiffness balance.

If you were to buy uprated springs from Alan, that's all he'd be doing - ringing his nearest manufacturer.

Chris
 

Demetris

Well-Known Member
#54
chrisyork said:
The only HD springs available off the shelf in the UK are the "Ray Weekly" type from Ian Wilson. These are not to factory spec but are varaible rate. People tell me they work well, but being a bit of a purist when it comes to suspension design and handling, I wouldn't consider them. The problem in my eyes being that along with the varaible rate you get varaible roll stiffness - ergo a different handling balance at gentle lean to maximum lean - not my cup of tea! They are extremely good if all you want to do is tow a caravan though.....Chris
I have a set of those springs fitted at the back for 3 years and almost 40K miles now.
Theory is all very nice, but this is what i experienced in practice:
The ride height is standard.
I always hear compliments from rear seat passengers about how comfortable this car is, there is just no comparison with anything they have been in.
As i like to "throw" the car in tight hairpins and rush into open curves without lifting of when i am alone in the car, i am only admiring on the balance especially in comparison with the old, standard springs that i removed.
However, i have no experience of new "standard" or "uprated" springs, so i cannot really comment on such a comparison.
 

Tor

Active Member
#55
Having fitted the calipers to the diff I checked the ratchets on both to see that all was well, but now I couldn't see the piston edging out of the bore. So I cursed a great deal and started checking with suppliers about a pair of calipers for parts and was depressed for about three days. THEN I opened mine up and inspected the action inside. Which was fine. No slippage, just a keen click and a reassuring gripping of teeth and slow rotation of the knurled head. So the piston was moving, just veeeeery slooowly... :roll: Refit, tighten the pivoting bolts, make sure the bodies actually pivot, and reconnect the hoses. Done. Put fresh oil in the diff. Decide to leave the de Dion assembly silver after a mismatching of the colour code made it so. Fit forward diff mount to Xmember and ready the fitting bracket with the spacers in the right order. Oh, and paint the little caliper bridging pipe black with a model-kit brush. Giggle self-consciously about just how many will ever notice. Now all is ready for assembly.
 

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Tor

Active Member
#56
chrisyork said:
there is bound to be a manufacturer relatively locally. (...) If you were to buy uprated springs from Alan, that's all he'd be doing - ringing his nearest manufacturer.
While Sweden has a super competent albeit challenged motorcar industry Norway never did, save some electric cars and of course the Troll, but let's not go there... I tried the one place I know (there may be two or three in the country manufacturing for cars and like everything else it costs the wrong end of £300 a pair). The outcome was a three-month wait for a pair of rubbish springs way softer than the sagged ones they were replacing, even after I gave them the factory spec for the 3500S. So that bombed, sadly.
Demetris said:
no comparison with anything they have been in. (...) As i like to "throw" the car in tight hairpins and rush into open curves without lifting of when i am alone in the car, i am only admiring on the balance especially in comparison with the old, standard springs that i removed.
Music to my ears 8) How about comfort when alone in the car on variable surfaces, and what shockers do you have at the rear?
 

Demetris

Well-Known Member
#57
Tor said:
How about comfort when alone in the car on variable surfaces, and what shockers do you have at the rear?
Comfort is excellent by any standards. Regarding shock absorbers, i was rather lucky. The car came with Koni classics, red, adjustable, and they are still going strong.
 
#58
At the end of the day, the choice of rear springs is not a catastrophe if you get it wrong - they are reasonably easy to change without dismantling all your smart new suspension. With that in mind, why not go with the Ray Weekly type springs and if you are less than delighted I'll sort out some uprate springs from the UK for you?

I can't remember what you have curreently, Tor, but if you are buying dampers new it is pretty well Hobsons choice (ie no choice) but to go with the adjustable GAZ dampers as sold by Alan at Classeparts. These do have the advantage that you can play with the setting until you are happy with the ride handling compromise.

Chris
 
#59
On a slight tangent, looking at your lovely diff and calipers, I'm wondering why they bother with that little 6inch bit of hard brake line on the 2nd caliper. Especially when using the Goodridge hoses, they could do away with it all together and with the stainless fitting it would look much better for years.

I thought maybe it was because there was something in the way on that side, but the handbrake linkage is at the back, strange.

I made up my own braided hoses, and kept the small extension too, can't remember why, other than it was there ! In fact I made a new one up in copper, and with the tight turns it's not the easiest thing to make.

I'm sure somebody will now explain why I'm being stupid ! :LOL:
 

Tor

Active Member
#60
Demetris said:
Comfort is excellent by any standards. Regarding shock absorbers, i was rather lucky. The car came with Koni classics, red, adjustable, and they are still going strong.
Isn't that just brilliant... I was lucky too, mine came with low-mileage Koni Classics, black (also adjustable). This combination looks like a good option then :D

chrisyork said:
At the end of the day (...) they are reasonably easy to change without dismantling all your smart new suspension. With that in mind, why not go with the Ray Weekly type springs and if you are less than delighted I'll sort out some uprate springs from the UK for you
True, they come out pretty quickly. Appreciate the offer Chris! I'll soon find out what I'll be going for, first have to try to see what I'm faced with on assembly. I'm really, really curious... but won't know fully for a while still. I've yet to pull the rest of the braking system and a pair of control arms for rebushing (and maybe some pimpin').

webmaster said:
I'm wondering why they bother with that little 6inch bit of hard brake line on the 2nd caliper.

I'm sure somebody will now explain why I'm being stupid ! :LOL:
I don't know that I can explain but I have a theory. A longer hose would conceivably flap about more, maybe chafe against the diff carrier and (maybe most importantly) be in the way of the bleed nipple as it's all so tight back there?

Anyway, here's mine 8)
 

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