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Engine mounts (4-cyl)

Discussion in 'Rover P6 Engine 4 cylinder' started by Willy Eckerslyke, Aug 11, 2012.

  1. Willy Eckerslyke

    Willy Eckerslyke Well-Known Member

    I've just noticed something a bit odd.
    As I was sending some Land Rover parts off for blasting and galvanising, I included a few P6 bits by way of experiment (I'll post more about them later). Included were a pair of engine mounts/brackets which look so good I thought I'd fit them to my 2000TC.
    But when I took the old ones off, they're different. The old ones have a 2 piece sleeve (top hat at bottom, straight at top [EDIT: checking another spare I realise they should have a top hat top and bottom]) at the outer ends where the long bolt goes through the rubber mount. The "new" ones just have a smaller diameter hole with no room for a sleeve. I think these were off a 2.2TC.
    The hole is larger diameter than the centre of the sleeve so presumably needs a wider bolt. But the odd thing is, the hole through the rubber mount on my 2000TC is also this larger diameter. So the bolt has always been a loose fit. The rubber mounts on my "project" 2000TC are the same, suggesting they're supposed to be like this. Can that be right?
    And more to the point, if I want to use my shiney "new" mounts, do I use the old bolts which will be loose top and bottom, or ones that fits properly and aren't loose anywhere? (I can't remember which bolts I removed from the 2.2TC with these mounts).

    EDIT: I've just found a 3rd mount with the smaller hole, but I've only ever had one 2.2 so that theory's looking unlikely.
     
  2. Veronica Manganese

    Veronica Manganese New Member

    Hi Willy
    I'm just new to the forum but I had a question about engine mounts for a 2000TC as well. What finally happened in your case?

    The engine in my husband's TC appears to lean towards the driver's side (US model, left hand drive), so it's almost impossible to get the aircleaner cover off. His car is a 1968, and I believe the engine mounts right and left are different (observation and referring to the Rover Parts Catalog). For some reason I thought that perhaps his engine mounts were reversed, which would cause the engine to lean. Any thoughts or experience with this, anyone? And more importantly, what is it going to take to swap the mounts. My husband thinks it will be trivial, I think it will be a major pain. Again, can someone advise?
    Thanks so much - I'm so delighted to find this forum.
    Veronica :?:
     
  3. Willy Eckerslyke

    Willy Eckerslyke Well-Known Member

    Hi Veronica, you've just answered part of my question! I had believed that the mounts/brackets were the same on both sides but now realise that I've had two right hand side ones galvanised. For some reason the top hat sleeves only fit the left side, while the right side has the smaller hole. The casting numbers are all the same so presumably they were cast the same, then drilled afterwards.
    I'm still puzzled about the loose fit of the bolt through the rubber mount on the left side of my car, but I have a spares car that I can dismantle to see if that's the same.
    When I do, I'll take some photos which might help you establish what's wrong with yours. It could take me a couple of days though as the car's outside and it's raining.
     
  4. Demetris

    Demetris Well-Known Member

    Dave,
    i am confused. I thought you were talking about the actual (rubber) mounts, but perhaps you are talking about the brackets?
    Anyway, the photos will shed some light on this.
     
  5. Willy Eckerslyke

    Willy Eckerslyke Well-Known Member

    Hi Demitris, sorry for the confusion. Yes it's the brackets that I had galvanised and have now established that the left and right are different only in the diameter of the holes at their outer ends. Right hand side has a small hole. Left hand side has a larger hole fitted with top hat shaped sleeves. I thought I'd sent away a pair, but they're actually two right hand side ones.

    The left hand side rubber mount also confused me because the hole down the centre is wider than the bolt. I've just checked my spares car and that's exactly the same so it must be intentional.

    I'm having trouble posting photos from home so have to do it from work, but it's been a bit busy. I'll try tomorrow, then hopefully all will become clear. :)
     
  6. Willy Eckerslyke

    Willy Eckerslyke Well-Known Member

    Some photos.
    End of galvanised RHS bracket with 2 LHS brackets and a rubber mount.
    [​IMG]

    LHS mount in place.
    [​IMG]

    LHS mount undone. Apart from the aluminium shield, there were no other spacers present. Veronica, does yours look like this? (It's obviously harder to see with carbs and exhaust in place.)
    [​IMG]
     
  7. Veronica Manganese

    Veronica Manganese New Member

    Hey
    sorry about the delay in answering. i THINK my LH motor mount looks like that - will have to run out to the car to look. yes, it's difficult to see with the carbs in place!

    HOWEVER, I think someone put these engine mounts in wrong - that is, left is on the right, and right is on the left (this is based on looking at my Rover - the problem is with my husband's).

    So, - to be continued, and does anyone have any experience just swapping out motor mounts???? My husband is convinced that he wants NEW ONES (I pulled two off one of our parts cars and now we can't find them!!!! - We have so many spare parts for so many vehicles ( including Rover P6s).

    will get back to you ASAP. And again, sorry for the silence.

    VM
     
  8. Veronica Manganese

    Veronica Manganese New Member

    OK
    I've just looked at the husband's P6.

    The LH (under the carbs) metal part looks the same, but on his car the rubber part is only as thick as the lower rubber on the one in your picture - it doesn't have the "neck" - so I think the engine is not sitting quite right - what has prompted this is the fact that we can't get the air cleaner cover off the carbs without great stress and distress - there just isn't enough clearance between the cover and the inside of the fender.

    I need to go back to your post and look at your RH again.

    I've been working outside all day re-pointing a chimney on this old house and am a little diddle-brained.

    VM
     
  9. Veronica Manganese

    Veronica Manganese New Member

    Well, it's hard for me to tell from the picture of your RH mount, if it's the same as mine. THe rubbers on both of mine are just flat, thick, discs. I have GOT to find the ones I took off the parts car. I KNOW they were different, and I LABELED them so I'd remember. Darn, darn darn!

    Anyway, I will now get notification of replies on the forum, so I won't be ignoring you in the future.

    What fun, eh?

    VM
     
  10. Willy Eckerslyke

    Willy Eckerslyke Well-Known Member

    The lack of that "neck" sounds to me as if the rubber mount has failed. Either that or someone's fitted an incorrect type at some point. I'm sure you'll find that the cast iron brackets that bolt to the engine are correct, and that the problem is entirely with the rubber mounts. If I was you, I'd be inclined to put a jack under the sump, with a piece of protective timber, then lift the engine a bit and see if the "neck " reappears. If nothing else, it should give you a better idea of what's wrong.
     
  11. Demetris

    Demetris Well-Known Member

    I had to remove and change the gasket on the left hand engine side plate as it was weeping for months and i got fed up with it staining the parking space.
    At the same time i was looking to exchange the rubber engine mountings for something else. The current ones were standard items that were fitted new (I know i was lucky!) when i changed the engine more than 4 years and 60K miles ago. At the time they made a world of difference isolating the NVH of the engine, but they started to deteriorate, something that was felt as lack of smoothness and was verified upon the removal of the mountings.

    [​IMG]

    Since these mountings are not available new, and used ones might be just as tired, i was looking for a long time for some replacement from another car that would be suitable. Current Fiats, Alfas etc use a very similar mounting with void bushes that allow the engine to woble free and isolate NVH in a spectacular degree as is the case with all modern cars. Unfortunately the smaller versions that could fit without altering anything to the base unit didn't look strong enough to support the weight of the Rover 4 cyl, while in order to fit the proper bigger ones you should trim quite a bit of metal to enlarge the hole that the mounting sits into. Given that i wouldn't like to start butchering the car, i seached a bit more and found these mountings.

    [​IMG]

    These are gearbox mountings from a Mk2 Golf, and as they used to support diesel engines/gearboxes it looked as though they could easily handle the weight of the Rover 4 cyl. Their design also allows some wobling, so they should be effective, and the best is that they fit as though they were made for the Rover. OK, i just had to touch the inner lip of the hole in the base unit with a file, but otherwise even the bolt down holes fell into the right place, no further drilling was required as you can see from the photos. Last but not least the engine remains more or less at the same height as with the original mountings.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    This was a dummy instalation, as it was not bolted down properly. It will take some time to finish the whole project as i have to clean and paint the engine and reinstall the side plates, but i'll report back on how it feels later.
     
    drabbers likes this.
  12. testrider

    testrider Active Member

    Well done finding those alternative engine mounts, they look like they should do the job. I'll be interested to know if you can tell a difference or not.
     
  13. pat180269

    pat180269 Active Member

    Ditto, a neat solution if it works.
     
  14. Demetris

    Demetris Well-Known Member

    Finished! :D

    It took me almost a week as i did not had much spare time to work on this, and with cleaning and painting the block and side plate the whole project took longer. Initially i intended to remove and reseal the side plate on the other side too, even if it wasn't leaking, but the studs on the block proved stubborn and i was running out of time so i chickened out and i just replaced the mount.
    I took my time to align the engine - gearbox properly before tightening everything and it was rather easy with the engine taking it's correct place.

    So, how it feels? Weird! You turn the key, you hear the starter, you hear the engine starting, but you don't feel the engine! :shock:
    There's none of the rocking that accompanies a starting engine and at idle if it wasn't for the noise you ccould not tell if the engine is running or not. On the other hand the movement of the engine seems controled and not excessive. Certainly there's not a hint of judder while taking up the drive. I did not had the chance to test the car at high speed on the motorway, but around town everything works smoothly. Regarding the noise there's not much to say, other than that the transmission seems to be a little noisier now, but because nothing could have happened on the gearbox with the car standing for a week, i guess that the engine is now quieter so the transmission is more audible.
    The only question that remains to be answered (apart from the high speed run) is the longevity of the mounts, but i doubt that there would be any problems there either. By taking up the engine weight, you can see them being compressed, but less so than the original Rover mountings, and in any case they don't look strained at all.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  15. testrider

    testrider Active Member

    Good result. I notice that you've fitted a heat shield to the mount as well.
     
  16. pat180269

    pat180269 Active Member

    Hi Demetris

    That looks a great upgrade.

    I have my 2200 mounts loosened off at the moment as I have just fitted a new clutch and gearbox so I will check my mounts and change them.
    The mount looks like it has a captive nut. Did you replace the nut & bolt with metric or drill it out?

    Pat
     
  17. Demetris

    Demetris Well-Known Member

    Hi Paul,

    there should be a factory heat shield in there. In my case it was missing, so i bent to shape a piece of aluminium sandwich heat shield taken from the floor tunnel of a scrapped modern car. On TCs the heat from the manifold is enough to fry anything in there. Certainly it gives the rubber of the mountings a hard time. The other side mounting wasn't as bad, but it was certainly sagged with the upper flange resting on the raised rubber lip of the mount.

    Pat, the new mounts have a threaded insert. I just bought a pair of steel galvanised part threaded 60 mm long M10 (i think...) bolts. There's no point messing with the mounts to use the Rover bolts. I also had to grind the guides on the top of the mounts to allow the engine bracket to rest fully on the top washer. Just be carefull with tightening.
    Mind you, replacing the mounts will involve quite a bit of dismantling in order to remove the engine brackets.
     
  18. pat180269

    pat180269 Active Member

    Hi demetris

    Be careful with galvanised bolts. The galvanising process makes them brittle. Bolts sometimes go through a de-embrittling process afterwards.

    I have some work to do down there anyway. The ex manifold is blowing (again) after I welded it. Also the previous owner replaced the side plate on the drivers side (rhd) but there is seems to be an oil leak now.

    Pat
     
  19. Demetris

    Demetris Well-Known Member

    Today i had the chance to take my 2000 on a longish trip over a good variety of roads and i am pleased to report that i have only positive comments to make.
    I 've had it up to 105 mph (well, it was facing a little uphill) and even when accelerating on full throttle there's none abnormal vibration.
    On the motorway the engine is now definitely more quiet and the typical 4 cyl drone is almost gone. Of course now you pick up other noises, like the rear end, and of course the wind above a certain speed. Before i start complaining i remind myself that this is a late 1950's design, albeit advanced, and i should stop asking for 2010 automotive refinements. That's not the point anyway. But even with modern criteria, at moderate speeds (engine and road) i can say that it is rather competitive now.
    I am still amused with the "Oh, it stalled" moments at the traffic lights! :D

    Pat, i am thinking that a grade 8 bolt, galvanised or not, should be a grade 8 bolt. Am i missing something?
     
  20. pat180269

    pat180269 Active Member

    You would think so, but I have had bad experiences with galvanised bolts being brittle. Maybe they were just poor quality but I would be wary about using them again.

    It really does sound an excellent upgrade from your experiences.
     

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