BW65 auto gearbox does not shift to third gear on Rover P6 3500

#1
I am having a problem with the third gear.
When i put the gear selector in 'D' it shifts fine from 1-2 but never from 2-3. it always stays in second gear max.
The other thing is that when i put the lever in D2 or D1 it only stays in the first gear, where i expect in D2 to shift from 1-2 as well.
I already checked the gear selector cable/settings and the level of the transmission fluid. Both seem fine. i also checked the Workshop Manual to see what other adjustments could be done, however, i don't know exactly how to proceed.
What would be the best next step?
 

harveyp6

Well-Known Member
#4
With the PRND21 pattern, D is fully auto, and on a Rover box 2 is second gear only, and 1 is first gear only. If you have the matching gearbox to that pattern and you have lost TOP gear only, (even if you lift off the throttle it still wont upshift 2-3) then it could be the governor sticking, or far less likely the 2-3 shift valve sticking.

If however you have a PRND21 selector plate with a PRND2D1L gearbox, then when you select D2 you will only get one upshift, because you are pulling away in SECOND, and then upshifting to TOP. Selecting 2 will be fully auto, and selecting L at a standstill it will pull away in first and stay there, if you select L on the move, if it's in SECOND at the time it will lock it in SECOND, if it's in FIRST it will lock it in FIRST.

What year is the car? And do you know what gearbox type is fitted?
 

harveyp6

Well-Known Member
#5
Just noticed the header says it's a BW65, but it can't be an early PRND2D1L selector pattern on that box, so if the selector cable and kickdown cable are correctly adjusted then I'd be looking at the governor first. Has this developed in normal use, or has the car been standing unused for a while?
 
#6
Thanks for your quick reply.
The car is 1974 export car LHD. I don't know exactly wich gearbox it is. What i read from the WM it should be a BW65, as the dipstick is on the LH side. The gear selector is via a cable.

The car has been standing unused for a couple of years.
I dont know it the kickdown cable is adjusted right i didnt look at that yet, because i didn't find it yet.
Where can i find the adjustment for the kickdown cable?
 

harveyp6

Well-Known Member
#7
If the selection is by cable and the dipstick is on the LH side (driver's side LHD) then it is a BW65

If the car has been unused it makes a sticking governor more likely.

If the 1-2 shift is on time (not late), and you don't have harsh engagement then the kickdown cable adjustment is most likely OK. It is behind the LH head where the dipstick tube is approximately.
 
#8
i think the 1-2 is on time and smooth and kickdown also seems to work fine. But i will check it to make sure.
One thing i like to add. if i fully release the throttle i hear a kind of 'clonk' sound, not very loud but it hear it.
I am not sure if it shifts down from 2-1 at that moment. Nothing wrong i would say but curious where the sound comes from. Do you know what i mean?

To get back to the governor.
What if it is a sticking governor? What needs to be done in that case?
 

harveyp6

Well-Known Member
#9
If you get a "clonk" when slowing with the throttle closed when it changes from 2-1 then that is a classic sign that the pressures are too high and the kickdown cable needs adjusting, but that is associated with the upshifts being late, which you don't seem to have.

The governor is inside the tailshaft housing, it can be removed, dismanted, inspected or replaced without removing the gearbox from the car.
 
#10
Okay many thanks again. I will check the kickdown cable to make sure and see if something happens when i adjust that first.
WIth respect to the governor, i need to locate the tailshaft housing, wouldn't know where that sits at this moment.
Do I need to drain the fluid before working on the tailshaft housing and governor?
 

harveyp6

Well-Known Member
#11
The tailshaft housing bolts to the rear of the main gearbox casing with 4 bolts. The box needs to be supported and the rear mounting removed, the front of the propshaft needs to be undone and the rear flange removed first, the then tailshaft housing will come off to reveal the governor inside. There is no need to drain the fluid. You will lose some fluid but not a lot.

The kickdown cable should be adjusted so that the inner cable has no slack in it, but it's not so tight that it holds the valve in the valve block open when at rest, just so that the valve is closed, but begins to open as soon as the throttle is opened.
 
#12
Thanks a lot Harveyp6. Very useful!
Sounds like a bit of work bit doable for me i think.
I have to see how i can get best under the car. I let you know how i proceed
 
#13
Today I rechecked the behaviour of the gears without changing anything yet.
I try to be as accurate as possible.

When i put it in 1 it always stays in 1, when i push the throttle. When i release the throttle it brakes on the engine, while staying in 1 st gear.

When i put it in 2, it pulls of in 1 st gear, when i push the throttle and it stays in 1 st gear. When i release the throttle it doesnt brake on the engine but behaves as if it runs in neutral. The engine goes to idle speed.

When i put it in D, it pulls of in 1 st gear, it shifts from 1-2 when i release the throttle a llttle bit otherwise it doent shift and goes easily to 3000 RPM. When i slow down and release the throttle, it doesnt brake on the engine and the engine behaves as in neutral. When the speed is slow enough it picks up again in 1 st gear.
When i release the throttle a little bit while on 3000 rpm it doesnt shift to 3 rd gear as explained before.

Next to that when i release and close the throttle it ALWAYS makes the 'clonk' sound when i drive in D, no matter if it shifts down from 2-1 or stays in 2.

I think it behaves a little bit different as first described.
Anyway, the 3 rd gear is never reached, that stays the same.

Harveyp6 do you still advise the same as in your previous advise? Or maybe something else wrong?
 

harveyp6

Well-Known Member
#14
When i put it in 1 it always stays in 1, when i push the throttle. When i release the throttle it brakes on the engine, while staying in 1 st gear.
That is how it should be.


When i put it in 2, it pulls of in 1 st gear, when i push the throttle and it stays in 1 st gear. When i release the throttle it doesnt brake on the engine but behaves as if it runs in neutral. The engine goes to idle speed.
A Rover box should pull away in SECOND gear when "2" is selected, and stay in SECOND until the gearlever is moved. When facing uphill it shouldn't roll backwards with the brakes released. All other boxes behave differently, pulling away with "2" selected, they should pull awy in FIRST (but with no engine braking) and then change into SECOND, and then change gear between 1-2 and 2-1 as throttle position and roadspeed dictate. It locks out TOP gear. You don't appear to have either of these options.


When i put it in D, it pulls of in 1 st gear, it shifts from 1-2 when i release the throttle a llttle bit otherwise it doent shift and goes easily to 3000 RPM. When i slow down and release the throttle, it doesnt brake on the engine and the engine behaves as in neutral. When the speed is slow enough it picks up again in 1 st gear.
When i release the throttle a little bit while on 3000 rpm it doesnt shift to 3 rd gear as explained before.
Having to release the throttle to prompt the upshift means the pressures are too high. The adjuster on the outer cable needs to be screwed upwards into the bracket.


Next to that when i release and close the throttle it ALWAYS makes the 'clonk' sound when i drive in D, no matter if it shifts down from 2-1 or stays in 2.
The clonk could be that the pressures are too high, the idle speed is too high, or ther is play in the driveline or the engine gearbox or diff mountings


I think it behaves a little bit different as first described.
Anyway, the 3 rd gear is never reached, that stays the same.
I'd adust the cable first and then roadtest again.


Harveyp6 do you still advise the same as in your previous advise? Or maybe something else wrong?
I stick to what i said before, set the cable correctly, then you may have to remove and inspect the governor.
 
#16
One more question. I am looking in the BW65 manual where to adjust the downshify cable.
I am not sure if i understood it correctly.
Is it right that it needs to be adjusted by accessing it from the upside from the transmission tunnel?
And than at the LH side? That means i should do it from within the car?
 

harveyp6

Well-Known Member
#17
The adjuster is on a bracket that is bolted to the rear of the inlet manifold, and the rear of the left hand cylinder head. (Driver's side LHD) If you remove the air cleaner assembly you should see it.
 
#19
Hello back
Today I adjusted the downshit cable. i screwed the outer cable upwards into the bracket for at least a centimeter.
I do not know if that is a lot or not. At least when i push the throttle it takes a bit before the donwshift cable is pulled.
Couldn't roadtest yet, so i do not know the result yet. Had to remove some hoses from the heater to the liquid gaz vapourizer to get access to the cable adjuster. i first need to re-attach those hoses and fill up with a bit of coolant.
Anyway, i let you know. Hope it helps.
 

harveyp6

Well-Known Member
#20
1cm is a massive amount to move the adjuster. You need to make sure that you haven't made the inner cable slack, if you have then the pressures will always be too low relative to the throttle opening. If not roadtest to make sure you still have the kickdown function, and hopefully you will have reduced the pressures enough to trigger the upshift into TOP.
 
Top