3500EI

KiwiRover

Active Member
How much do we know about the fuel injected prototypes Rover were building in the late '60s? I've got James Taylor's book which has (as far as i can tell) the only known picture of one and a bit of speculation. James also wrote a short article in P6 News in 1994 that confirmed that several were built. The article says that former Rover engineer Richard twist recalled that around 50 injected cars had been built. Later some records had turned up at BL that suggested that at least 5 3500SI models had been road registered and their commission numbers suggested that there could have been at least 41 cars built. Some engine numbers in these records were described as 3500EI and 3500PI.
However, that is all I can find out. Are there any other pictures of the motor setup in existence?
The reason I ask is that I have just bought this:
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With the wiring loom fitted. (I think. It's not that easy to work out where it goes.
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Throttle linkage assembly. Not to sure what the ram thing does. Idle up perhaps?
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Slightly dusty ECU.
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After I stripped it and gave it a good clean.
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Obviously this is quite a score and it seems to be mostly complete. It does have a few differences to the one in the book and I believe it is probably a slightly later development. Having EI instead of FI being the main clue. Any thoughts or suggestions? I would greatly love to turn this into a functioning item, rather that just a museum piece. Do any of the parts look familiar? Can I find spares for it anywhere else?
 
Thanks Richard! Well spotted. I see Blueman had one of these manifolds too. Is he still around? Is it still around? I see quite a few variations between the two, I suspect that no two systems were quite the same. Don't want to get into another discussion about Reg Mason's car. Very nice but a lot of things that didn't add up. :?
Mine does seem to be in fairly good nick so i'm hoping it can be resurrected. And i guess if the ECU won't work there's always Megasquirt. I think this would be the perfect complement to my AC'd V8, it will be just crying out for a single scoop then! :D And I'll be talking to some people about making up some 3500EI badges too.
 
Wow what a find, Al! Are we allowed to ask you where that came from?

I think that looks more production ready than Blueman's FI labelled example. There's more general junk in the way of external pipes and widgets which is always a clue to someone having had a good basic plot and then had to add last minute tweaks to get the last 5%! I somehow think EI is a more likely moniker for the model than the other suggestions.

Let's take a step back a moment and look at the overall model policy at Rover just prior to the launch of the S2 in the UK. I would contend that the only thing of consequence that sets the S2 apart from the NADA S1 is the bonnet. David Bache's surviving cars, sketches and mock up photos clearly confirm the V8 rocker cover lumps in this bonnet as a key Bache theme at the time so this is a genuine Rover feature. As launched though, the S2 is simply a slightly despecced NADA with a new bonnet! Even technically the car at launch is still to S1 spec. Mechanical changes come slowly later. That can't have been what Rover had in mind.

There seems to be general assent that Rover had intended an S2 NADA. This by the discussion about the suddenness and unexpectedness of the US pull out. They'd even started production of the S2 Federal TC! The one thing that really sank the S1 NADA was the auto choke arrangement (which exposed the inadequacies of the US dealer network - without it they might have got away with it!), so it is absolutely certain that the existing carburation would not have survived. That combined with the Co's experience with EFI, the scent of serious emission controls on the close horizon, and the BMW and Merc competition becoming more serious in the US thanks to Bosch mechanical injection in my view makes EFI a certainty for the S2 NADA. I think it's very likely that Rover would have named this model 3500SI (Lucas Injection) as per the Reg Mason badge, so as to maintain continuity with the preceding model.

In the UK, with a committment to NADA injection, it makes sense to do an injected model too. That BMW 2500 saloon (the straight six update of the old 2000CS) is either already launched or just about to, and Merc are doing Mechanical injection in the UK. The Rover's lead is slipping away. There's no restriction on what to call it. The UK haven't had any model suffix's yet (remember the 3500S at this stage is a US only model with a name that harks back to the '65 2000S, not forward to the UK manual car). I'd guess that there would have been a carburettored car and an injected car.

So what about the UK 3500S? Well I can't see the Rover 4 spd box standing up to an injected V8! I wonder if Rover had intended to use a ZF box? Then with no injected model the bean counters told them not to be silly and use the existing 2000 box. Hence the rather hurried abortion that is the 3500S box? I believe there were prototypes around with externally sourced boxes at various stages?

OK. So what about other details of the system? I'm intringued as to how the air cleaner woulkd be arranged. It clearly lives in roughly the same place as the preceding cylinder across the back of the engine. But doesn't the central location of the manifold intake preclude a centre scoop on the bonnet? Perhaps it was a double decker arrangement with air entering a top level and flowing out to the ends of the "cylinder" and thn back on a lower level to the intake?

I'm also intrigued to see the innards of the ECU. Also any indications as to whether there are any emissions features.

I do like the idea of turning your A/C car into an EI though!

Chris
 
You sly Ol bugger -where the F did you find that - I want one
I bet there will be so many out there wanting one you could go into business making them up to sell and you can retire
Gerald
 
I have always suspected that the badges on Reg Masons car were not genuine because this injection system is almost certainly NOT Lucas. It is very similar to the 2000PI setup in my manual which is a Brico setup.
I found it on Ebay, (where else) but the tale is quite interesting. The seller had listed a bare manifold (FI type) with no ancilliaries whatsoever. Naturally I hit the buy now but I casually asked the seller if he had any of the other bits for it. He replied that he actually a complete setup that he would be prepared to sell me for a bit extra. :D :D :D
It turns out that he owns an engineering shop and he had inherited the premises, equipment and a back room full of junk from the Morgan engine development workshops! I believe that Rover and Morgan had a fairly friendly relationship in those days so I guess Rover chucked them a couple of EI setups to play with when the project was scrapped.
Mine has definately been running at some point, there is carbon on the injectors but it has probably on a shelf for the last forty years and has survived really well. I'll take some pics of the ECU when I open it up Chris, I have no Idea what to expect in there so I'll need some advice!
As for the air cleaner, have a look in James Taylor's book for that. It sits across the back of the manifold with a snorkel protruding forward and up to the bonnet, a la NADA. I think I should be able to build one out of a Stag air box.

BTW, after I bought this, the seller relisted the bare manifold and it sold for the starting price! Only one person bid! Anyone on here?
 
Al If you need some assistance with detailing the ecu give me a shout, I can undoubtably trace it out to a circuit diagram and circiut discription.

:LOL: If you were of a mind to go into production with after market reproductions of the injection system I can manufacture the ecu.

Graeme
 
Thanks Graeme, I might have to take you up on that. I have a basic (mechanic's) understanding of auto electrics but electronics are a bit beyond me.
Production could be fun, I wonder how much it would cost to get copies of the manifold cast up? :LOL:
 
hmmm - now would it be wrong to fit original fuel injection to a series 1...?? ;) i guess it would match the test mules at least!
 
It's certainly period to the series 1 (at least the development phase) :p

Cant imagine the cost of casting up the unit would be that much, or the machining of it, plenty of specilist firms about that would relish the task either in AK of CHCH.

Graeme
 
Yep, I've ripped the photo from that one:



I don't recognise this manifold at all. Even the injected SD1's that went to the US, I thought, had a more or less standard Lucas system. So is this another Rover experimental one? The area around the injectors does look similar to KiwiRover's? I wonder if it is an FI / EI manifold without the plenum chamber? It seems to be from the same source as KwiRover's

Chris
 

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It's the same manifold as mine Chris but it has some adaptor plates fitted for carbs. And the same seller too. He obviously had a few spares.
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I took the covers off the ECU today too so for all those interested parties, here is the end with the plugs. The thing in the middle is for a vacuum line.
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It has little rubber feet to sit on so I took the top off to start with and found this:
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So I took off the feet and the bottom cover and found this:
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No idea what it all does yet but it looks OK. I am going to go through the wiring and try and plan out a wiring diagram for the loom. Luckily I have the workshop manual for the 2000FI to compare it too. A lot of the operation seems similar (but not quite the same frustratingly).
 
As you may be aware Mark Gray and myself did a lot of digging a year or so ago on the fuel injection cars. We found the production record for the purpose-built injection P6's, which appears to have been not unearthed before. IIRC there were around 19 purpose-built cars (chassis number starting '999') but they weren't produced in order, and some in the series may well have been fuel injected Range Rovers, not P6's at all. The '999' series ran up to about 39 cars.

There is at least one surviving car of this batch, although it has had a replacement base unit/panels/interior and does not have the engine remaining, which was given by Rover to one of it's suppliers in 1972. They still have it.

We also believe we may have identified Reg Mason's original green car. His car, as found minus number plates etc. in the early 1980's, was genuine, there is photographic evidence etc. However nothing remains of the car today apart from the badges (of which at least one IS genuine, as they were on the car 'as found'.

At some point there will be a major article in 'Driving Force' on fuel injected P6's, we just do not have enough details at this stage to put one together.
 
I wonder what the serial number on the ecu relates to? any tie up to a base unit or engine number? given the hand engraved nature it is unlikely ot be a catalog part number and more likely relates to a car identity plus the ser no 42 means there must have been at least that number fitted to vehicles or engines.

The electronics are definatly period 1960'- 70's

graeme
 
For those that don't have Taylor, here's the pictures from his book:







And then some photo's (they could be from KiwiRover or perhaps from Blueman of an FI set up:







Chris
 

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Al

Are you certain that your new manifold and set up are Brico - are there any labels or inscriptions to confirm anywhere?

Chris
 
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I don't recognise this manifold at all.

Similar layout to a manifold Offenhauser made for the Pontiac Tempest ( with 215 V8 )

Carbs for this were 2 x 2BBL Rochesters; "two thirds of a Pontiac TriPower" ( I have this setup sitting on a shelf ) As the Ebay Auction for the bare FI manifold suggests: ( this is also ) easily adaptable for Weber downdrafts

Pontoffen5262.jpg


FI looks even closer to the Offenhauser Oldsmobile manifold in concept...

ofy-5164b3_w.jpg


+this is the Mega-rare Edelbrock manifold

O2B%20C.JPG


Good score Al! Rare stuff

GW





GW
 
OK, Nick:
There is at least one surviving car of this batch, although it has had a replacement base unit/panels/interior and does not have the engine remaining, which was given by Rover to one of it's suppliers in 1972. They still have it.
What is your definition of "surviving"? Sounds like a different car to me. :LOL:
If that article comes about though, I'd very much like to read it! Have you read the JT article? He mentions 5 cars with 999 chassis numbers, all with *XC regos and most with 999 engine numbers. All registered late 1970 and despatched to various companies over the next few years.

GW, that manifold looks very interesting. Any idea how far back they were building them? Or if Buick did a factory version? It's certainly possible that the EI manifold was based on a modified Offy type. Or maybe it was vice versa?

Chris, nothing on the setup says Brico but the injectors and AAV are both labelled AE (Associated engineering). The 2000FI manual says in small print on the front page: "Brico engineering. The Associated engineering group." and also refers to it on one page as "the AE injection system." Crucially, nothing says Lucas.
Those pictures are the ones posted by Blueman a few years ago.

Graeme, quite a few of the components have hand etched serial numbers. Mostly different so I'm not too sure what it all means yet.
 
GW, that manifold looks very interesting. Any idea how far back they were building them? Or if Buick did a factory version? It's certainly possible that the EI manifold was based on a modified Offy type. Or maybe it was vice versa?

Hi Al,

the Olds + Pontiac Offenhauser manifolds date from 1961; AFAIK there was never a Factory 2 x 2 ( 3 x 2 or 2 x 4 ) option offered + I believe Edelbrock were the only other aftermarket manufacturer that offered a 2 x 2BBL manifold for B-O-P 215's, long obsolete + rare

With the introduction of the Mustang in 1964 V-8's suddenly had to have 4BBL carbs to be "cool" and this type of aftermarket setup went out of style instantly; but I believe Offenhauser still make 'em ( p/no. 5164 Olds + 5262 Pontiac )

'61 Tempest: Transaxle's in the back on these...

tempestconv.jpg


The only exotic GM manifold was this one: for the Olds F85 Turbo

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/215-...ptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

GW
 
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